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Odd VE 4 CR 407 distributor
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uberwagen
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:57 pm    Post subject: Odd VE 4 CR 407 distributor Reply with quote

I thought I would share some pictures of this "progressive refinement" that did not last very long.

From Progressive Refinements:

"Sept 26 to Oct 17 1953
from eng. 467 490 to 654 500
Ignition distributor,
Now: MP - condenser inside distributor housing.
Formerly: mounted outside."

the distributor is stamped 9J on the outside, and is located in an October 53 Canadian custom sunroof that is awaiting restoration.

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Glenn
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet you remember this topic: Unusual 383 distributor

6J
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What puzzles me, is i've restored 383s with 1955 date codes. These were used in 356 Porsche's and are identical to the older ones. So I don't understand why there was a special model with a internal condenser.

If you want it restored, PM me, i'd love to see the internals and graph the curve.

VEK 4 BS 343 (???? - Early 1949)
VE 4 BRS 383 (Early 1949 - December 21, 1953)
VE 4 CR 407 (????)
VJU 4 BR 2 (December 21, 1953 - January 1954)
VJU 4 BR 3 T (January 1954 - August 1954)
VJU 4 BR 8 (July 1954 - 1960)

The only other distributor i've seen with a similar part number is VE 4/2 CR 404 which is for a 57-58 Goliath 700 (which is 2 cylinder) and has a external condenser.

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tasb
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an October 1953 VE 4 BRS 383 date stamped October 1953 with the internal condenser restored, and in my personal collection. Progressive Refinements date range makes it a 23 day production run. I think it's an experiment that Bosch was not happy with. They stayed away from internal condensers until 1960 when the "big cap" 40 hp production was in progress. Perhaps it was a heat issue? the larger big cap bodies might dissapate heat better than the smaller bodies.

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The condenser is riveted to the points plate so I can't imagine replacing that until it fails rather than a part of a preventive maintenance routine.
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tasb
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dates that Glenn lists for the VE 4 BRS 383 does not include Porsche. They used the 383 several more years beyond VW. I've worked on a 383 that was very late and has characteristics found on the later VJ 4 BR 8's including the later badge.
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Roads Scholar & distributor restorations
1956 oval third owner 36 hp- slow drag Champion 2012, 2014, 2015, 2017 sold to a good new home

1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1960 sunroof beetle owned since 1991 36 hp moved on after 32 years of stewardship.

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
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tasb
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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late 383 distributor
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Roads Scholar & distributor restorations
1956 oval third owner 36 hp- slow drag Champion 2012, 2014, 2015, 2017 sold to a good new home

1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1960 sunroof beetle owned since 1991 36 hp moved on after 32 years of stewardship.

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
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Frederik
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2021 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Odd VE 4 CR 407 distributor Reply with quote

I didn't find any more recent thread about the VE 4 CR 407 distributor. It shows up in the 1954 Bosch part list for VE 4.. distributors, listed as for Volkswagen (besides the more common 383). It is basicly the "same" distributor as a 383, using the same weights, shaft and cam shaft. Interestingly they list other weight springs for it than for the 383, but this "new" springs accually became stock on later production 383 (Porsche) and also as replacement in later 50's part lists for all 383.

As for the condenser it is listed as spare part number ZVEZ 2/1181 and the rivet holding it as NNJ 864/4, or the complete points plate ZVEZ 2/1294b (would come with points and condenser attached). Also the points breaker arm has a nother part number than your usual 383 (and later centrifugal distributors) ZVEZ 2/2423, the stationary point is the usual ZKT 48/5.

The 2/xxxx part numbers usually was on special order/ low production Bosch parts.

The strange bit is the 383 distributors showing in this thread with the 407 points plate, as they basicly are 407s. Bosch might have tested the points plate before giving the new distributor a whole new name tag or Bosch used the left over points plates for 383s on VW when the 407 was discontinued?
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Frederik
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2021 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Odd VE 4 CR 407 distributor Reply with quote

..by the way there was some other VE 4 CR.. distributors used back then
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heimlich Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Odd VE 4 CR 407 distributor Reply with quote

The internal condensers came back later on in other vehicle makes such as Mercedes.
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Glenn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Odd VE 4 CR 407 distributor Reply with quote

heimlich wrote:
The internal condensers came back later on in other vehicle makes such as Mercedes.

The V8s, the 4 and 6 cylinders still had them outside.

It's rare to have an internal condenser on a 60mm distributor, but the 90mm and V8 had room.
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Frederik
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: Odd VE 4 CR 407 distributor Reply with quote

For 6 and 8 cyl cars Bosch had versions with internal condenser well before the 407. 1947 Bosch parts book:
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If you look close at the condenser in the 407 it does look simular in size/ diameter of the later condensers used and replacing the formerly old large diameter condensers from ca 1959 and on. Condensers used in the early (-late) 50's was normaly larger in diameter and wouldn't have fitted inside the smaller (60mm) distributor. This was probably a test by Bosch of manufacturing smaller diameter condensers and when making them smaller they probably discovered they could mount it inside the distributor and tested that as well. The condenser is probably protected better from dirt/water inside the distributor. For some reason (heat, problem of service?) they abandoned that idea for the smaller diameter distributors. 2/xxxx part numbers was primarily used on special order/ low number/ test production parts. The 2/xxxx parts never got a new (x xxx xxx xxx) part number when it arrived, they still used the old "special order" part numbers.
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