bostig conversion

[zombievws]

I agree I think its a great kit but way overpriced. and anyone who would pay 10 to 15k for a engine installed it retarded. I gave $500. for a 84 tin top in good condition minus a engine. soooo, I don't see how installing a 7k engine and kit is making it anymore than a 5k vanagon. im not going backwards here. the subi swap is a little less but geeez that nuts. now, I will say that if I had a really nice tricked out westy syncro it would be a different story. I can do all the work myself. maybe that's the market the bostig company wants. the higher end crowd.
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unique is what we seek, bizarre is what we are.

[Phishman068]

You aren't doing a Subaru conversion using off the shelf/fabricated parts, built to the same quality, for $3,000. Yes, if you're going to weld your own mounts, mild steel exhaust, shorten your own oil pan, and use plumbing fittings throughout the cooling system, and modify your own harness, it's very doable for $3K. Heck, you can make one look pretty darn nice for that price, that's not the point.

The brand new harness, custom made to adapt the zetec to the vanagon is EASILY worth $1000 right there, probably more. Heck, having a subaru harness "Professionally modified" costs almost that....

I'm not here to get into a pissing match about how cheaply you can do whatever conversion you just did, I will say.... I recently helped someone do a subaru 2.5 swap using all the best parts available in the form of the Rocky Moutnain Westy kit, and the end result certainly wasn't significantly different in price from the bostig conversion.
The fit and finish of the Rocky Mountain westy kit was spectacular, without a doubt the best DIY Subaru conversion setup i've seen yet, and their instructions and support proved quite good.
But bostig's been at the DIY complete kit game for hundreds more kits then they have, and it shows. There are over a million miles on zetec engines in vanagons! That's something!

It really is worth it.
Half of what you're paying for is the ability for YOU to do it yourself. I know, that makes no sense, but it's spectacular to have the confidence to sit down and do such a huge project all on your own and the value gained from knowing your engine and being able to fix things on your own is worth more then the cost of the kit.

I don't need to defend my statements or preach "BOSTIG".
I don't show off my engine, because I don't open my engine lid, ever. It's reliable and I don't need to know what's under there.
Tomorrow I will be opening it up and looking at my engine for the first time in almost 5,000 miles, since the end of May.
If you love looking at your engine and freaking out about every little thing, keep a WBXer in there.
If you want to put the key in it and know that you'll be able to drive it to work and show up on time, Zetec.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559766&highlight=winter+rust
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482402&highlight=sunroof+syncro
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569774
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6864936#6864936

"Along with the ability to go fast, one looses the desire to hurry."

[zombievws]

no argument here. thanks for your input. every vw mechanic ive spoken to says the wbxr is nothing but a POS. junk and do not use or try to rebuild one. that's why im looking for a swap.
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unique is what we seek, bizarre is what we are.

[mekanism]

$1000 for a harness is overpriced imo, no matter if its for a suby or a zetec. When I was in the Honda scene you could have a a completely custom harness with all new parts (no core harness) built for you for around $500. For a $1000 you would get a fully tucked (hidden) harness using all mil spec wiring and connectors, which I can assure you as an aerospace worker costs a lot for materials.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not knocking the quality of the Bostig but spending $6k to put a $500 engine in a car seems a bit ridiculous dont you think?

Maybe some of us dont mind a mild steel exhaust that costs half the price but will still last at least 100k miles. Maybe a DIY harness schematic like the Kennedy one is sufficient for those of us that dont mind building our own harness.

It seems they could cut the costs down a bit for us less full walleted owners but still offer a nice quality kit.

[LemonCove]

For me it's less about economics, and more about combining the "best" of the Westy, with the "better" of a more modern drivetrain. And yes, I weighed a subie and a diesel as options.

When I was (a lot) younger, it was part of the travel experience to sit behind my bay westy with my head in the engine compartment . . . vapor lock in Kayenta. generator in Orland, trying to find a a part in Ciudad Guzman . . . . . . Now, not so much.

I still want the compact package (Westy), but I want more comfort (Vanagon), efficiency and reliability (Zetec). I have a couple Subarus, and they're great, but the Bostig kit was DIY out of the box, and the Zetec is a great engine. Mine was $700 and had 2500 miles on it.

So I have what, maybe $16-17K in my van counting the original purchase, Bostig, and all the other upgrades (wheels and tires, A/C, Stereo, . . . . ).

Cost effective compared to a WBX van maybe not. But Now I have a van with less than 10K miles on the engine, A/C that works, comfortable, quiet highway cruising, but with the full camping package and I'm getting 22mpg. Honestly, it's now just as reliable as my Subie wagon.

If I wasn't Westy-fied long ago . . . then maybe I would've done a vintage Airstream with a similar vintage tow car. So really, compared to that, my Bostig Westy is a bargain.
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'88 Bostig Westy

[MsTaboo]

I have resisted posting to this thread as it's another "why do a Bostig?" thread and there are already dozens here, but what the hell!

Yes the kit is a bit much, but Jim and the boys deserve to make a living. They have put together a very nice kit and continue to improve it.

The Zetec gives a modest boost in power, but the main deal is reliability!
There's a thread here on theSamba about who drove their Vanagon a 1000 miles and made it.
Well, with a properly installed Bostig/Zetec (and attention to the other bits of maintenance on the van) anyone can!

Over 30k on our Bostig conversion and only one small hiccup, a broken flex coupler. (which didn't strand me and Bostig replaced along with the cat for free)
I've been carrying my big tool kit with us on every trip (old habit) and never needed it.
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Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec

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[vanonimous]

Considering high cost anyone deciding on conversion should probably first go drive them for comparison.
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If happiness is being a mechanic, owning a Vanagon is nirvana.

Lighting upgrades: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578291

[zombievws]

my only issue with a Subaru is oil consumption.i have owned a 02 legacy wagon for the past 11 months. with 131k and will use 1 qt of oil in 750 .to 1000 miles. I have read on several forums that this is a common issue with this yr model. I have spoken to over 50 subi owners and none of them have ever had this issue, head gaskets YES. valve cover gaskets YES. but excessive oil burning no.
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unique is what we seek, bizarre is what we are.

[bostig]

Hi Guys,

Thought I could add in some more info here that could help,
straight from the horse's ass.. wait that's not... anyhow I
agree with zombievws and mekanism, it is all overpriced!
Originally, we thought we could make a conversion that could be
FINISHED for under $5k and be as reliable as what we have now
*and* still be done each and every time successfully by novices,
like we have now.

Unfortunately that was not to be. The size of the vanagon
aftermarket is GROSSLY overestimated by most people in it
including me early on Certainly it is by anyone that would
compare it to Jeep or Honda aftermarkets (both of which we see).
To add more bad news to the pile, it will get worse. Typically
in product manufacturing, you'll see the prices come down over
time. Mark my words, they will go up.

There may be promotions and deals on things here and there, but
in general the prices will go up as the Vanagons go away. We are
all slowing that trend, but they are still going away. This is
an important lesson since we all know from econ 101 as scarcity
increases, so do prices... and what value to customers get for
scarcity? Bragging rights is about it.

Also make no mistake, nobody involved with Bostig has ever made
decent money doing it. You might think we're rolling in it
because we have a nice website and charge a lot, but it's simply
not true. I still love it, and the benefits are great like
essentially free travel in my rusty butt syncro and loads of
tools etc. but it is not going to sustain me into my old age.

The costs of delivering the kits at such low volumes (highest
for vanagonland, appallingly low for any direct to consumer
product company) are high. We are on the bleeding edge of small
batch manufacturing, which itself is cool. When we started in
2004, this was not possible. If you had to buy all the machines
that make the Bostig kit the old school way, you'd need around
$250 million. All the efficiencies via tech improvements have
made all this possible (so expect Bostig-like companies in other
areas of interest in the next 5-10 years). But it will never be
like mainstream auto aftermarket pricing and will only get worse
over time (unless I win the lottery then you can all have free
kits, but I don't buy lottery tickets which is like trying to
commit suicide by flying commercial airlines hoping for a crash)

Anyhow, the big thing you are getting for your money is risk
limitation. It isn't sexy and it doesn't sell as many kits as I
wished it would (if we sold more, then prices could come down,
and yes I'm aware of the chicken-egg there: to put that to rest
the egg came first... from something not entirely yet a
chicken... but this is where we are).

If instead of an engine swap, we are talking about cookies for
instance, then perhaps Bostig sells chocolate chip cookie dough
like pillsbury (although we'd taste way better and source
ingredients more responsibly). You still need some other things
like a baking sheet, an oven, and to follow the directions, but
if you do you will get the same cookies that your buddy got last
week when he made his.

Everyone else sells flour, eggs, sugar or some other
combination. The thing that really blows me away, and that I
still don't understand is that our biggest competition isn't
Rocky Mountain Westy, Smallcar, Vanaru, or anybody else.... it's
Subaru of America. Why? Because they market cookies to the
exact same demographic as the niche we are in. The venn diagram
of Subaru shoppers and Vanagon folks is almost a circle, save
the subie tuner crowd. People love subaru here (for the most
part), and as such really like the idea of having a subaru
conversion.

Here's what I don't get: saying you want a subaru conversion,
and it'll be awesome is the same thing as saying you are going
to bake cookies as good as grandma's because you use King Arthur
flour like she does. Nobody would ever say that since they
understand that cookies are *way* more than the flour, the
proportions and ingredients of everything else matter, and how
they come together and are cooked also matter. THAT is the
value with the Bostig. We are the ONLY ones that can guarantee
an outcome every time. That is why now 2 people can support the
largest fleet of conversions and still have time to work (albeit
slowly, sorry folks, I do my best) on power adders and other
projects for the future.

If we were wrong in the approach or the outcome, we would have
drowned long ago in floods of problems and gone belly up. Keep
in mind, this while at the same time with a support/liability
*many* times greater than a shop that sells flour to one guy,
eggs to someone else and so on. If you botch home-made
cookies, it's your fault. If you get an awful cookie from a
dough-log from pillsbury you can complain to the company and
rightly so. That's the difference... we developed and deliver a
repeatable recipe and the ingredients to make it really fast
and easy, that has risk managed from front to back in areas I
guarantee you would never even think to look. That's also why
home made cookie take much longer to make, and why subaru-based
(see what I did there?) take 2x-3x longer for experienced
installers to finish than ours.

But conversions AREN'T cookies. They don't have to taste good
once, they have to taste good for as long as you own the vanagon
(ok I'm trainwrecking the analogy now) and that is the next
thing you get. The whole thing has been developed to do
exceedingly well in the long term.

For instance, and no offence intended to anyone, but there is no
such thing as "professionally" re-wired harness. There is no
automotive professional that would accept that taking a used
harness that's been baked into shape for years and intended to
be used in-situ after factory installation and never disturbed
unless fully replaced (subaru only sells complete wiring
sections for this reason) is the equivalent of a new harness
because it isn't.

It's just baking the gremlin eggs right into the cookie, and you
might not even have the original recipe for how to do it again
if you need to. For a practical example, most of the harnesses
I've seen during re-conversions are soldered. Unless one can
make sure the joints are oxygen free (impossible because even
the jackets have micro cracks since they become brittle and
crack during removal), the flux used in soldering will
accelerate corrosion and the joints will age faster than if they
were crimped and sealed or if anyone really wanted to go for it,
water soluble flux and a rinse/dry or full-on wire fusing
machine (never seen any of those, just corroded joints).

The harness, and lack of available terminals, seal, and
backshells unless in huge quantities is one of the reasons we
didn't use King Arthur flour... I mean subaru engines from the
beginning along with their much higher instances of moderate-
severe engine problems in the DOHC 2.5s in the mid-late 90s and
overall poor availability, additional complexity, and poorer
parts infrastructure. Not good things for novices to pay for or
deal with unless they are in it to be car guys... which most are
not.

People asked us to do a Bostig Subaru based conversion, but it
won't happen unless we are also doing a new harness (not
standalone aftermarket ECU, reliability is too low) it's not
impossible but don't hold your breath as the pricing for a
Bostig Subaru based solution introduces itself into the 5
figures for such a kit, you would have the same complaints as
now, and still lower reliability even with a new harness since
the engines are so complex comparatively speaking. The Subaru
reversed R&P trans plus a 3.6 could be really fun, but it would
be huge money, and certainly not for the novice, or average road
tripper/camper... great show vehicle/sleeper.

I really would love to do a $5k total cost for a kit, but we'd
have to sell 100+ kits in a batch to even come close, and that
simply isn't going to happen.

As far as the CARB, we got to the lab testing phase, at which
point the catalytic converter manufacturer lost their EO and
tanked our application. We lost a bunch of time and money on
that one (things like that and the myriad of failed projects ate
up lots of money, it isn't lining my pocket, I re-invested
everything but ramen money).

It cant be stickered via a BAR ref either since we've developed
the whole system, it isn't like the 1.8t which is moved over
from a donor. We developed a whole system based on OEM engine
management hardware but running our own strategy.

Kennedy had it easy since it's an OBDI setup... it's really easy
to get an EO for a dirtier older setup, but not what we have.
Why? Priorities, and then laws changed. Search here, I've
explained it before, one hand washing the other to sell cars
in exchange for dropping lawsuits etc for the most progressive
emissions laws in the world. Also lowers ARB mobile source
program costs and improves performance to force fleet
overturn.

Still hurts since we would have had
it before Stephan's, but now don't even have it.. on top of thats
people still beat the crap out of us for perceived ground
clearance but nobody complains about the 1.8t, which is quite a
bit worse in both clearance and departure angle than us even
with the raised decklid.. nevermind protection options, nobody
can beat us there. Why not throw that in there, my flame suit is
already on.

Cheers all,

Jim

[zeohsix]

[zeohsix]

Damn phone can't properly post....OBD2 swap is a big can of worms in Kali......MTDI.....FTW! no emissions requirements!
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I'm Cheap! I'll build that Syncro Westy myself and save money but, my labor is "FREE" especially if I ever go to sell it! One thing is I will know the quality of the parts and labor that went into the build and rest better when I'm actually driving said Westy down the road!

[chojinchef]

[ftp2leta]

[insyncro]

Right on Benny.

Cheapos can beat up the cost all they want....dreamers

The smoothness of the running Bostig conversion, ease of installation and reliability after the install all make sense to me...and I have plenty of conversion experience.

Sorry, but a 2.2 Subaru on its third rebuild is no comparison to a fresh, crate Zetec or a 40k mile original easily sourced worldwide.

[ftp2leta]

[kourt]

My story:

I'm a moderately experienced DIY mechanic... a Volvo 240/BMW airhead motorcycle/Ford F-series truck guy. I have rebuilt engines and do all my own work on all my own vehicles. I don't own anything newer than 1987.

I wanted a Vanagon but pitied the water cooled engine. Finding information about conversions was easy. A good argument could be made for all the major conversions. RMW was my second choice... but Bostig was the clear path for me and for my skill set, circumstances, resources, and future support plan.

I bought the kit five months before I started looking for a van.

The validation for my choice in conversions came when I wanted to find an engine... I only had to make a short drive to the south end of town, where a junkyard had a warehouse full of engines of all makes. There were about 15 Zetecs in there waiting to be repurposed, and all priced within the $500 range. I had the ability to be very particular in my choice. This was one junkyard in central Texas. A search on car-part.com will give explosive results.

When I see a 00-04 Ford Focus on the road these days, I smile at the driver and think, "future donor engine."

I love me some Subaru engines as well, and I pray at the altar of the boxer engine every day on my BMW motorcycle, but the Zetec can't be beat for overall cost efficiency, support, parts availability (especially internationally) and simplicity. The end result is a moderate performance improvement and significant support and reliability improvement--everything I wanted.

kourt

[insyncro]

An additional 40hp doesn't eat transmissions

Everyone wants big power and torque until they have to keep sending off the transmission for another rebuild.

The transmissions I work with and see on a regular basis for 200hp+ cost more than the Bostig kit

I don't think many realize how much more than the engine conversion is needed to safely and reliability drive a Vanagon with more than 40hp over the Waterboxer.
Brakes, suspension, wheels and tires...just for starters.

[Petervw]

[Emmitt]

I have done the research and want the Bostig hands down.

I have a couple quick questions that I looked around Bostigs website but could not find the answers. So anyone please chime in.

1.) Can someone enlighten me if there is any difference in the new RG3 from the RG2? Or is it just the next batch that is coming out.

2.) Whats the deal with the whole deposit thing? I just want to throw my money at Bostig and get a kit? From my understanding of the website people pay deposits and they get enough people together and then make another batch? Can I not just pay the full amount then instead of just a deposit?

[JudoJeff]

Emmitt,

RG2 versus RG3, no difference, except the air filter box is now much easier to do. The RG means "Retail Group" and refers to the final retail version. But Bostig is continually improving the design, they can't help it. I changed my RG1 airbox over to RG3's.

I paid everything at once, you can do that. Because there is a time lag from when you order, to when it ships, (the kits are not in stock, too expensive), Most people send in money when they can save it up. If Bostig gets 10 kits sold, they order 10 to be made. They are done in batches. That's why people say things like "I was in #21, etc" Dates when you did the conversion.

You'll be very happy after this is installed!
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________________________________________
1989 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Burned up on 7/31/16.
1987 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig & Rebuilt, sold
1986 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig Sold May 10, 2021
1999 Ford GTRV Westfalia camper (30% bigger Westy layout)