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DIY - Red Tek conversion
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't care at all.
I put the oil where it belongs now, and well as where it was supposed to be yesterday.

I fill the compressor with the appropriate amount of oil and check it with a dipstick as the mfg. always suggests, and add the correct amount in the hoses.
Period --Done--
Regardless where Sgt. Preston decides he wants to go with his off the wall dry sump, or 2 stroke set up that he suggested, which it actually isn't.
If he wants to think he has a Bultaco compressor & system that's fine with me, whatever he wants to do.

I really don't either care where or what he does or doesn't do to his AC system.
If he wants to add an accumulator, orfice tube, oil tank & pump to feed is normally wet sumped compressor---that's grand.

Whatever trips his trigger.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mory, it really doesn't matter where the oil goes..as long as the compressor gets first crack at it...and you don't slug the compressor. The information Sanden provides in their tech manual is helpful in that it should help with correct oil quantity where a system is not "new". As long as you don't go over 8% there shouldn't be oil "insulating" issues, and under 3%, compressor damage.

Aside from system performance the only way Sanden is describing diagnosis of over-oiling is by running the compressor at given rpm, removing and draining it to compare to the chart on page 10. A lot of work...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I read all of the 43 Pages of this forum..........
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...mp;start=0

I sat with a notebook, took notes, followed the frequent bunny trails of links as well. All told I've four evenings of reading invested!
It wasn't all for naught but a lot of the content here was mind numbing and there was also some scary reading considering the erroneous advice freely given to others!

Here is the Cliff's Notes (Dave's Notes) version of the 43 pages.......
------------------------

How to repair and rebuild the Non Functioning or Poorly Functioning Rear Mounted Air Conditioner in YOUR Vanagon to work marvelously!
--------------------------

I read a lot, I took notes as I read and while I haven't yet done this task, I'm gathering bits and getting ready to!

Helpful reads.....
------------

https://bostig.zendesk.com/categories/search?utf8=...mit=Search
Click on Adding Air and then parts 2, 3 & 4 as well.
------------

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...mp;start=0

As of Sept 5, 2014 there are 43 pages to wade through, most of it repetitive and a lot of it is simply drivel........
--------------

http://www.redtek.com/win_12a_prod.html

Everything you'll ever want to know about the RED TEK product line
-------------

http://www.hychill.com.au/pdf/hcm_e.pdf
Updated link........
http://hychill.com.au/content/3-info/hychill-manual.pdf

This is an Australian company with a similar product. Their guide is interesting and helpful, also can be a little confusing with so many charging valves!
Nonetheless, an excellent read! (Thanks for the link farf!)
-----------

http://www.epatest.com/609/manual/609_section4.html

Accept Air Conditioning practices, agree or disagree, here they are.....
--------------

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5...mp;start=0

A very good write up about rebuilding your AC system along with a well written step by step guide.
---------------

http://www.teamec.be/cms_files/Flushing%20and%20Cleaning(EN).pdf

How to flush an AC system
-------------

http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/smartlist_13/1986_1991_vanagon_automatic_transmission.html

Van Cafe an Excellent Vanagon Parts Supplier
---------------

http://www.busdepot.com

Bus Depot an excellent Vanagon Parts Supplier
----------------

http://www.gowesty.com

Go Westy an excellent Vanagon parts supplier
--------------

http://southeastairinc.com/main.html#1,0

SouthEast Air, a proven AC component supplier.
-----------------

http://nostalgicac.com

Nostalgic Air, A proven AC component supplier
-------------------


http://www.hosewarehouse.com

Hose Warehouse, a supplier of hoses, fittings, tools, etc.
-----------

http://www.vintageair.com

Vintage Air, a supplier of components and kits for AC systems.
-----------

1) Make sure you understand how Air Conditioning works before you do any work on these, the gas is flammable, the pressures can be extremely high and the potential for injury is very real.

2) NEVER CHARGE YOUR SYSTEM VIA THE HIGH PRESSURE PORT!!!!!!!
The can of refrigerant could be over pressurized thus causing it to burst! When it does burst, it's taking fingers, skin and maybe even your eyes with it!

3) Always wear safety goggles, maybe a full face shield and gloves to protected yourself in the event that something does go wrong, bad wrong!

4) Heed the Advice of Terry Kay (TK), "Do not short cut this process--you'll wind up wasting a bunch of refrigerant in the process checking out how the system is going to function."

******************


1) Use Red Tek, it's the best available option currently available today, Envirosafe is an option as well. They are a Hydro Carbon Refrigerant.

2) If using the original compressor that came to market running R12, realize that it came with Mineral Oil (MO) as a lubricant. MO does NOT play well with others so the best advice it to not change oils and continue to run MO in your system. Do not use any oil charge products for it introduces non compatible oils into your system.

3) If you replace your compressor, you've got a choice in oils to use but most new units ship with PAG oil in them, flush out your system, drain the compressor and make the switch to Ester Oils, this is the oil Red Tek ships in their oil charge cans.

4) Bleed out your existing cooling gas, be environmentally savvy and pay a shop to recover it, or be irresponsible and bleed it into the atmosphere! If you do choose to be irresponsible, at least be safe, hook a charging hose to the system and submerge the venting end into a bucket of water to cut the danger factor of the gas significantly.

5) Remove your compressor from the engine, yes, unbolt it and take it off.
Rotate the compressor but hand, it is smooth and quiet? If not, replace it.
Pull out the side plug and drain it into a container, CATCH THE OIL! You want to know how much was in there!
Now hold it on end, pulley up and rotate the compressor which will discharge even more oil.

6) Refill the compressor with 5.1oz of oil, my moneys on using Mineral Oil but....... You need to choose for yourself.

7) Put the plug back in and return it to the engine.

Cool Disconnect the Receiver/Dryer from your system, you are going to put in a new one right? Compare it with the new one before discarding and verify that it's the same unit. Do not uncap it yet, the less atmospheric air that gets exposed to the interior of this unit the better it will be.

9) If you are reusing your existing Hoses, Condenser and Evaporator, you want to clean it all really well. It would be absolutely best to remove the items from the vehicle, hose them off, and use a cleaning agent to flush out all of the interior debris so affectionately known as "Snot".

10) If you choose not to remove components, at least disconnect each unit and flush each unit inside and hose the exteriors clean as a separate entity, flush the interior piping as much as you must until the cleaner solvent runs clear, flush in both directions. Disconnecting allows you to install new sealing Orings at each junction in the system.
Clamp some common heater or other similar sized hose onto you AC component fittings to allow you to control the exit if your AC "Snot" use compressed air to blow out the solvent as you capture it in a container.
Use a dedicated AC line flush or use truck brake line cleaner antifreeze. Whatever cleaner you use be careful, these agents can hurt you if splashed into your eyes or onto more sensitive skin.

11) It is advised to install a new Expansion Valve and why not? For $25 it's cheap insurance on you possibly wasting you $60 of charging gas when you later discover that it is bad!

12) It is STRONGLY advised that you go through the effort of pulling your Evaporator and removing it for it is highly likely to be plugged with decades of dirt and crud. You should also service your Blower Motor while you are in there. Yes, it's a major PITA but very necessary for cold AC.

13) When reinstalling your AC components you need to install oil into various components as you do so. There is a method to the madness here! According to Bentley....... You are installing 8oz of oil,
5.1 went into your compressor, that leaves 2.9 to put into the lines and components.
2oz goes into the Evaporator,
0.3oz into the Receiver/Dryer,
0.3oz into the Low Pressure Hose and
0.3oz into the High Pressure Hose.
How do you get it in? Measure it and pour or get an aerosol can of your selected oil.

14) Use a drop or two of your selected oil type onto the Orings and various connection glanges and nuts as you assemble your AC system. Work clean! VERY VERY CLEAN!!!!!

15) The Bentley states that the entire AC system takes 50.75 oz of R12......... One 6oz can of Red Tek is equivalent to 18oz of R12........ Some math........18+18+18= 54 .......... Hmmmmm most say to install 3 cans of Red Tek and one 4oz Can of Red Tek Proseal........ That's 58 oz of product. They also have 4oz can of Dye Charge to check for leaks with a black light........... If you are doing a system using new or well flushed and resealed components........ the Pro Seal is probably not needed. The Dye Charge may be a wise thing to install anyway.

16) Use an evacuation pump to produce a VACUUM in your system, allow it to pump for three hours if you have a quality pump, maybe up to eight hours if you've got an under powered cheapie version! Turn off the pump, disconnect the gauges and remove the R134a adapters (they can leak) and let it sit for a day, hook up the gauges and see if you've maintained a vacuum, if the vacuum is gone is time to find the leak! DO NOT CUT CORNERS ON THE EVACUATION PROCESS, DO IT ALL OR DON'T BOTHER! A little moisture in the system WILL cause odd pressures and poor cooling.

17) To check for leaks it is best to install a can of gas, and maybe a can of dye if you don't have a sniffer. You can use soapy water and watch for bubbles as well. Some say that you can compress the system using nitrogen or compressed air but only up to 50-60 psi, any more is NOT favored. Some feel that using compressed air to check for leaks is a waste of time and possibly will damage the system.

1Cool Fix the leak and evacuate the system again to verify the leak is fixed.

19) Once reassembled and no leaks are verified, you may charge it up. You want 3 cans of Red Tek, four if you opt for no Dye Charge or Proseal.if you are prone to being stupid, disconnect the high pressure line before charging! Do NOT CHARGE VIA THE HIGH PRESSURE PORT!!!!!!! Hook up a can to the adapter but before fastening the fill hose to the gauge, crack it open and let just a little to bleed out purging the hose of air. Attack the charging hose to the gauge set. SET UP A GOOD FAN BLOWING ON YOUR CONDENSER IN FRONT OF THE CAR!!!!!!! Start the engine turn on the AC. Now slowly open only the low pressure port, the system Vacuum should suck in almost the entire can.

Do you put in gas or liquid? A lot of bad posts here on that. Back in the Early 70's with R12 I was taught to NEVER put in liquid for you risk the chance of compressor damage. Some claim you can do can one with liquid but not any of the following cans. Maybe you can, maybe you can't? Why risk compressor damage?

Just keep the can upright and allow the gas into the system. Hold it in your hand and swirl it about, your body warmth is encouraging the cold liquid to vaporize in the can and enter the system.

20) Once the first can is in, shut off the low pressure port, shut off the valve/disconnect the hose and remove the can from the adapter, put on your proSeal and/or Dye Charge as you see fit. At this time hook the high pressure gauge back up so you can monitor pressures and you now know not to be stupid and blow off your hand........right? Again bleed the hose feed your chosen additive and hook it up, soon, if not already the compressor will kick on and start sucking in the gas, watch the gauges as it does and be aware of the pressures indicated on the gauges. Same procedures as before watching the gauges. When these cans are installed you will either 10oz or 14oz of gas in your system. You are aiming at approximately three cans in your system, a little more or a little less, you will determine this next.

21) Now hook up Red Tek can two and then can Three as needed. Don't put the full third can in, watch your gauges and start measuring output temperatures.

22) Optimal pressures? TK says 28-30 Low / 190-195 High....... Red Tek says 30-38 Low / 170 High and further says up to mid 40's Low but not over 180 High. You choose! There are also charts for temperature compensation on these pressures, they aren't set in stone! And can be quite confusing to the novice.

23) Once you are fully and optimally charged, which may take some experimentation, add a little, bleed a little, waiting between each adjustment until the coldest cold is achieved. That cold SHOULD be in the mid to upper 30's!



Suggested Parts........

Horizontal Flow Condenser
Nostalgic Air part # 54-1622
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Last edited by djkeev on Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:53 am; edited 3 times in total
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JudoJeff
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,
We need this kind of a synopsis for a lot of threads, do you have any plans for the next few years.......?????
Jeff
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JudoJeff wrote:
Dave,
We need this kind of a synopsis for a lot of threads, do you have any plans for the next few years.......?????
Jeff


Thanks, but If I've left anything out, included wrong information please ket me know, I'll correct the posts!

This is simply me taking notes and weighing them with what I was taught at Mercedes Benz back in the early 1970's.

Dave
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,
You covered just about everything pretty good.

Excluding one small item to go along with not short cutting the job.
There is nothing that can be substituted for the correct AC tools.
If a guy is trying to get his AC up and running, doesn't have an evac pump, manifold & gauges, at a minimum, there is no point in even starting this resurrection exercise.
There is no shortcuts to get the Max out of any AC system .
If you don't understand the operating process, don't have a clue what goes where, how the sysetm is supposed to function and want to know how, locate a Mitchells or Snap On AC Training Manual.
Best info available anywhere and will make your AC renwal a breeze.
Plus they both have all kinds of trouble shooting info-- real easy solutions.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is confusion (I'm confused) about charging procedures with Red Tek.

Does one introduce only Gas as in an R12 system because of compressor damage possibilities, As I was so firmly taught in the 1970's ....... or.........

Does one fully follow the Red Tek instructions and only introduce liquid by holding the can upside down throughout the entire procedure?

I know the R12 and the R12a gases are vastly different in physical properties, so, is it not possible for Red Tek to lock up a Compressor?

Red Tek instructions..........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dave
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
OK, I read all of the 43 Pages of this forum..........
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...mp;start=0

I sat with a notebook, took notes, followed the frequent bunny trails of links as well. All told I've four evenings of reading invested!
It wasn't all for naught but a lot of the content here was mind numbing and there was also some scary reading considering the erroneous advice freely given to others!

Here is the Cliff's Notes (Dave's Notes) version of the 43 pages.......
------------------------


Dave, Applause Applause Applause Applause Dancing Dancing Dancing

I will be doing this job this fall/winter and this synopsis is just awesome!

Maybe a mod can post a link to this post on the first page of this thread?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

U also wont get the same , best correct working press on all vehicles, too many variations due to age, yrs etc.When I get mine at its max I make a note if the lo side press, if after a winter of non use & if u have a q checking this press is usually all needed. Last long winter required a can of red tec even tho I ran ac some on a warm day mainly to lube comp seal, my 2cts
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,
I put the first can of RedTek into the HIGH side while it was under vacuum, with the RedTek can upside down. Engine off, A/C switches off. Then I closed the HIGH side valve and charged from then on, with the RedTek can upright into the LOW side. I floated the can in lukewarm water.

The pressure readings are affected by the ambient air temperatures. So high readings on a very hot day doesn't mean the charging is wrong. Watch the temperatures coming out of the plenum, once they start to go up stop charging.

You can drive around and see how cold it feels. I used a cheap, under $15 fishing thermometer on the dash so I could monitor the output temps.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just found this thread, wow, it's not that complicated folks. I am an industrial HVAC/refrigeration tech, and honestly a lot of the guys in the business don't really know what's going on either.

A couple of points -

This Red tek stuff is a hydrocarbon refrigerant, it is a butane, propane, pentane, etc. mix ( I didn't look at the actual mixture). It has less density than a flourocarbon (R12), since you have less mass it is easier to move around, so your pressures are lower. The 'specific heat' is good, which means that each pound of refrigerant moving around carries a lot of heat with it, so less work needs to be done.

Since it is a mix, you always want to add with the can upside down. That way it doesn't separate into it's components as you ad it. If you slowly charge with can upside down you won't hurt your compressor valves.

The best way to pressure test any system is with nitrogen. The system needs to hold pressure overnight for the best test. Wait at least an hour. We do this in industry on large equipment. Good leak testing can take three days or more in that scenario. The gauges on a manifold set really can't measure vacuum that accurately and may not show a small leak. I have always have had lousy results on cars with electronic leak detection as well. Many shops have nitrogen for tires now, putting 100-150 psi in the system will verify that is is tight. Also when you bleed off the nitrogen before evacuation it will purge most of the air and moisture.

Change the oil in your vacuum pump EVERY TIME you do an evacuation. We use special low pressure vacuum guages and you cannot get a good vacuum with dirty oil. The oil is critical in proper vacuum pump function.

You have a sight glass on your receiver/drier. If your system is charged there will be no bubbles in the sight glass. You can see the Vanagon sight glass on the later cars over the drivers rear wheel at the top fitting of the receiver, it may be covered with crap, but clean it off and look at it when the AC is running. The receiver acts like an accumulator, holding refrigerant when the load is lower. There is a dip tube in the receiver that acts like a trap to stop gas bubbles from traveling down the high pressure liquid line to the expansion valve. If you have bubbles then your system capacity is limited because gas takes up a lot more volume than liquid, and it cannot cool because it cannot change phase.

I have not done any Vanagon AC work for years, but did install a similar refrigerant about 20 years ago with good results. This HC stuff does work BETTER than flourocarbon mixes, but was not considered safe by auto manufacturers I guess.

The oil is constantly moving around in the system with the refrigerant. You only add oil to the compressor. The oil only does any good in the compressor and will return there when the system is running at a good load. Nothing else in the system 'needs' oil. The compressor is just like any other compressor except the gas compressed is not air.

When I teach classes I refer to refrigerants as "fancy water". They work the same as water, but condense and evaporate at temperatures and pressures that are more easily achieved in a refrigeration system. Evaporation of the refrigerant absorbs heat, when it condenses it releases that heat. We are taking heat from somewhere we don't want it and putting it somewhere else.

Any questions or whatever send me a PM.

I just picked up a $200 Vanagon that I am getting running in the next month or so that has 10 psi pressure in the AC system now, so it should be able to be charged. I will try the Red tek. My Bostig was done 4 years ago and my wife complains that I never hooked up the AC on that, oh well........

John Fitzgerald
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hallelujah! I rest my case....

Thanks John, welcome to the RedTek forum.

Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You rest your case on what ?
Another man's opinion?

Some good info, some not so educated.

Perhaps on a Westfalia milk chiller, or a Crosley refrigerator he wouldn't add any oil in the lines, on any automotive, truck, heavy equipment it is recommended.

He is also requiring some schooling on the red tek as it's molecular make up is larger than R12.

So hallelujah to what?
That your still a little off?
Amen to that.

Next.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry, I think you's got yer molecules confused with density..as per Redtek themselves. John has correctly stated that Redtek density is less than R12.

"The density of RED TEKŪ 12a is significantly lower than R12. This, combined with the higher latent heat and thermal conductivity, has the desirable effects of reducing the weight of refrigerant required to extract a specified amount of heat. In practice, the required weight of RED TEKŪ 12a needed to give the same refrigeration capacity and performance as R12 or R134a, is 35% and 40% respectively. Significantly less by weight than either traditional products.?"

John, nice to see you joining Farf in the realm of what I'd call experts. Mike (Farf) has shared some of his pm's with me helping a few other users troubleshoot..and has a solid knowledge of the physics at hand.

I found pressure testing the system worked a lot better than vacuum for leaks..albeit using dry air (which I know is not recommended!), followed by a few hours at full vacuum.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, the posted chart about the molecular size of the 3 refrigerants mentioned the Red-Tek has the largest size.
R-12- medium, Red-Tek large, 134-A small.
What that means?
I don't know.
Perhaps your reading something I missed.

The red tek is larger, and has less of a preponderance of leaking in an older , original system, at lower head pressures.
I've introduced the stuff here, have been using it a heck of a lot longer than the hobbiests, and am totally aware of what it does & doesn't do.

The issue with the compressed air is some star gazing kid is going to over pressurize his system with older components, & blow the hell outa something--himself, maybe.

My sniffer,& or the dye & black light work just fine for locating leaks without putting any components in jeopardy by plugging into any high pressure air line.
This is a real dumb & unsafe idea.

Glad you & Farfenugen comprehensively compare notes, seeing as your neighbors.
A Canadian bonding experience perhaps.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:48 pm    Post subject: Expansion valve compatible? Reply with quote

So I ordered an Expansion valve for an 1985 Vanagon AC. BusDepot sent this one:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The one I took out of the van looked like this;
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Can I use the BusDepot one? They said it's compatible.
What do I do with the extra fitting? Ignore it?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bus Depot sent you a valve with an external equalizer. You need one with the same body but internally equalized.

Edit: Here is a link explaining the difference between the valves and how they operate.

https://www.swtc.edu/ag_power/air_conditioning/lecture/expansion_valve.htm
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guzyk
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:24 am    Post subject: OEM part number for early expansion valve Reply with quote

Does anyone have the VW part number for 1983-85 A/C expansion valve?
Part #27 in this Vagcat drawing

http://www.vagcat.com/epc/cat/vw/T2/1985/4/50/56503/#27
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Farf
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try gowesty.com part # 175-272-679 about $26.00
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connorsvw2
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely do NOT install that expansion valve. I just did so after being assured by the vendor that it would work fine with the second tube left open to the atmosphere, and ended up cleaning up the mess from 3 wasted cans of Red Tek from my overhead cabinet. I'm out $60 for the valve and 3 cans of Red Tek, and had to reuse my old valve.
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