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Dangerous parts for sale on the Samba?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:


I can't wait till Nigel sees this thread Shocked



yea, he may have a stroke Laughing
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[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

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Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

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Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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Wasted youth
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding bus safety, raygreenwood said: ....but safety or near safety....or comparative safety should never even enter the conversation.

Hmmm....I would venture to say that a 1973 model year bus has far more features that improve its safety over that of a pre-1968 bus.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasted youth/adulthood wrote:
Regarding bus safety, raygreenwood said: ....but safety or near safety....or comparative safety should never even enter the conversation.

Hmmm....I would venture to say that a 1973 model year bus has far more features that improve its safety over that of a pre-1968 bus.


Oh yes...for sure.....but are those significant in any real way?

I mean....60's compared to early 70's safety features:

Telescopic collapsing steering column...compared to not...is great. But when you have .065" thick sheet metal with virtually no structure...18" in front of you...in what way other than saving your impalement does that really factor in?

Three point seat belts compared to none or a lap belt....yes great! Again...they are going to need the jaws of life and a sponge to get you out of the drivers seat that belt kept you in...in any sort of significant crash.

There are lots of safety features and upgrades for performance...better brakes, better visibility, better wipers, better lights, the IRS rear end....these all make the bus safer to operate...but there was very little (some yes)...but very little significant crash resistance put into these vehicles compared to now.

Little or no crush resistance, energy absorbance etc.
And...reallly overall...VW was not alone. It was a different driving era.


Oh...and I do agree with what lionhart94010 noted when he said aside from all the other issues he just did not want to add any more with solid parcel shelves.

I did not think about it that way....and when I think further....I tend to go further.

Do we really think that all of those doing nifty camper conversions and adding in stoves, fridge, cabinets, tables.... the occasional Propex furnace because they are too cheap to put in an Eber.....the honey bucket...and the bong collection and the mountain bike.......are actually doing anything to securely mount all of that heavy equipment safely to the chassis?

I mean any tested at crash speed meaningful way? Doubtful.

I wonder if there are any accessible statistics/photographic records there are of rolling party wagons like that...and not just VW's....chevy's , dodge etc....that got in a serious accident....and whose former occupants looked like a lightspeed meeting between a twinky and a dingdong....as all that crap launched forward and sandwiched their little stoned carcasses against the front armour merrily caving its way rearward?

And we are worried about safety....with a comment like "a small pet on the parcel shelf"?

Hey...once they finally legalize marijuana ....you can safely hang your bong from the rearview mirror so it wont turn over on a two wheeled turn.
Thats as safe as a pet on the parcel shelf...especially the bamboo parcel shelf.....as long as it doesn't hit you in the head on a right turn causing you to lose control....run into the taco truck...and kill your chihuahua on the parcel shelf because he pull two G's into the the drivers side firewall and got caught in the fuse block.

Im just sayin'...... Wink
Ray
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timvw7476
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Dangerous parts for sale on the Samba? Reply with quote

between the lack of stability control,ABS,airbags,power steering, telescopic
bumpers etc, every part that allows anyone to keep a bay on the road can
be deemed "dangerous" , i suspect the expiration date of every vehicle is
to be found in it's engineering.
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ChrisFred
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionhart94010 wrote:
I too “agree with Ray in making sure you bus or bug is in top condition. Drive VERY defensively like your riding a motorcycle and smile and enjoy your VW and life.”

However making them even less safe with dangerous add–on’s for sale to uninformed samba members on Thesamba is my main concern, adding beneficial upgrades is just a subtopic ;0)


ChrisFred, RE:

Quote:
http://www.eisparts.com/ZVW-21411.html?gclid=CPK6gbDKk8ECFRJk7AodBBsApA

May not be pretty, but I can tell it does not work on deluxes (without modification to the tray).


It was only after buying a similar plastic tray as the one above that I realized even the plastic one could cause unnecessary harm in an accident over the stock ones, IMO I have worthless tray that I can’t in good conscious resell :0(

Another less than safe parcel tray for sale on Thesamba


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1603818

Hand crafted trays. Their great as,a foot res and to place your,food on. You can also fit a small pet on them and it has cup holders. they are steel constructed and hand welded. Feel free to texft me if interested 6263105136 local pick up only



If you post in on classifieds just make sure that the buyers are informed on the possible danger with a disclaimer! I wouldn't feel guilt selling it to somebody if they know the potential situation of damage can occur.
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matt94gt
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChrisFred wrote:
I messaged him the dangers on this part. Too risky to put in any bus, but if somebody was crazy enough, I had told him to put a disclaimer stating that this is a potentially dangerous part in the bus.

I also let him know some websites sell reproduction OEM pieces for $80, and they are safer Laughing


Anyone have these ones? THey look nice:
http://www.bus-boys.com/bbaccess.htm

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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in the 80's I knew a lot of people who owned Saabs. Safety was one of the big selling points for many of them. I also knew way more people who wrecked Saabs than any other vehicle. One friend rolled multiple times in a short construction zone because he lost control in the loose gravel. Others lost control on snow covered roads and climbed guard rail or ended up in ditches. What they were doing was driving faster than conditions merited and getting into trouble because of it.

The number of people I have known who own VW's far outnumbers the number of Saab owners I know, but I have known very few who ended up in wrecks and those were mostly in their teens or early twenties at the time.

I would hazard a guess that a VW bus cruising at 60 is just about as safe as the best newer car driving along at 80. In a head on situation the high sitting bus might well compromise the crumple zone on a newer vehicle giving the bus's occupant a comparable edge.

It would be interesting to see if all the Bays and Splities with Raby engines and Vanagons with Subies and such end up having a higher injury and mortality rate than stock Transporters do.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VDubTech wrote:
ChrisFred wrote:
I am not stating they are a 5 star safety vehicle of today, but anything is better than some of the cars on the road today. (Smart car, Lotus Elise, etc.)

That might be one of the stupidest things I've ever read.


I agree with VDT here...there are some cool crash test videos of the Smart car that prove its construction makes it surprisingly safe in head on and offset front collisions.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Back in the 80's I knew a lot of people who owned Saabs. Safety was one of the big selling points for many of them. I also knew way more people who wrecked Saabs than any other vehicle. One friend rolled multiple times in a short construction zone because he lost control in the loose gravel. Others lost control on snow covered roads and climbed guard rail or ended up in ditches. What they were doing was driving faster than conditions merited and getting into trouble because of it.

The number of people I have known who own VW's far outnumbers the number of Saab owners I know, but I have known very few who ended up in wrecks and those were mostly in their teens or early twenties at the time.

I would hazard a guess that a VW bus cruising at 60 is just about as safe as the best newer car driving along at 80. In a head on situation the high sitting bus might well compromise the crumple zone on a newer vehicle giving the bus's occupant a comparable edge.

It would be interesting to see if all the Bays and Splities with Raby engines and Vanagons with Subies and such end up having a higher injury and mortality rate than stock Transporters do.



A bus that hasn't been raised or dropped has a bumper that's positioned at or slightly lower than most average size vehicles on the road today (excluding trucks/SUV's). I've seen plenty of buses involved in accidents over the last 30+ years and I'd have to say ones chances are better today than years ago in a bus. Why?

Newer vehicles crumple zones and lighter materials. I've seen plenty of buses vs newer car accidents and the buses were able to drive away while the newer vehicle needed a wrecker called. It'll take more than a 35-45mph hit against a modern vehicle to knock a bus out of commission.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Back in the 80's I knew a lot of people who owned Saabs. Safety was one of the big selling points for many of them. I also knew way more people who wrecked Saabs than any other vehicle. One friend rolled multiple times in a short construction zone because he lost control in the loose gravel. Others lost control on snow covered roads and climbed guard rail or ended up in ditches. What they were doing was driving faster than conditions merited and getting into trouble because of it.

The number of people I have known who own VW's far outnumbers the number of Saab owners I know, but I have known very few who ended up in wrecks and those were mostly in their teens or early twenties at the time.

I would hazard a guess that a VW bus cruising at 60 is just about as safe as the best newer car driving along at 80. In a head on situation the high sitting bus might well compromise the crumple zone on a newer vehicle giving the bus's occupant a comparable edge.

It would be interesting to see if all the Bays and Splities with Raby engines and Vanagons with Subies and such end up having a higher injury and mortality rate than stock Transporters do.


With a engine with more HP in a bus you tend to travel at a more consistent speed since hills aren't a big problem anymore vs dropping into the slow lane climbing any hill.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

udidwht wrote:
It'll take more than a 35-45mph hit against a modern vehicle to knock a bus out of commission.

Um, no.
No, it won't; even "against" a modern car.
I will just have to respectfully disagree with this statement.

The only other thing I have to add is that many of the reasons I now DD a Vanagon are listed in this thread Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

borninabus wrote:
udidwht wrote:
It'll take more than a 35-45mph hit against a modern vehicle to knock a bus out of commission.

Um, no.
No, it won't; even "against" a modern car.
I will just have to respectfully disagree with this statement.

The only other thing I have to add is that many of the reasons I now DD a Vanagon are listed in this thread Wink


Seeing is believing...and believe me I've seen plenty of buses that drove away after an accident. There are also a plethora of threads on here where it's been documented.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dudes....you guys are mistaking and now mixing chassis survivability with occupant safety....not even remotely the same thing. If it were....the original post would be meaningless.

I mean...in this train of thought...who gives a shit if you shear a leg off on the solid steel parcel shelf if the bus lives to drive another day?

Some of this same train of thought is why many still do not understand the role of an airbag...which is NOT to keep your limp ass in the car. In fact....in most cases....the airbag is well in the middle of its deflation cycle as your kneecaps pass the steering wheel on your way through the windshield if you neglected to wear a seat belt.

The fact that a bus hitting a modern car does more damage to the modern car...is irrelevant to passenger safety...or who walked away with less injuries.

The modern car is designed to crumple as noted. This is precisely the main reason why the 5 mph crash damage legislation was suspended (or never really ratified) in Canada and was laughed at in Germany, Europe in general and most other places.

Its soooo simple to make a bumper that will survive a small fender bender to keep insurance repair costs down....but virtually impossible if you are actually making the car safe for occupants.

is that just for your vehicles 5mph?
Or is it your vehicles 5mph and another vehicles 5 mph...which is 10 mph?
Or how do you violate/overcome inertia...your 5000 lb+ of vehicle, occupants and crap at 5 mph against an immobile object?....bumper survives...but everything behind it accordions to keep you from becoming a projectile.

Bumper is pristine....car is 9" shorter. Kind of makes the 5mph crash bumper and safety cell technology incompatible.

So all manufacturers pretty much ignore it now and its not enforced.

So why does it need to be this way?...back to the airbag.

The airbag is designed to decelerate your sack of potatoes ass in about 2/100's of a second so that instant deceleration from the seat belt and inertial reel system does not let your guts smash up against your ribcage...or your brain slosh up against your skull.

Thousands of people..before airbags ....came away from a minor accident without a visible scratch...and literally died hours later from internal bleeding and organ damage....no shit.
Thats what airbags are for....and thats the inertia you have to worry about.

No....Im not buying that a bus is more survivable than a modern car.

Oh...I used to own a Saab 900 for years. I have worked on many Saab's.
Wonderful cars in so many ways. Mine went well over 350k miles....most do (up until about 1999 when to much GM started going into them). A lot has to do with the nikisil type coating in the cylinders.

But I fully agree. When in good shape..they handle quite well. Deceptively well.

The reason why people wreck so many is that they last soooo long. When they get up in miles...they must have new ball joints, new complete A-arms by 175K miles (factory bulletin as they are prone to cracking)...and new A-arms are still readily available with bushings for less than $85 each.

And the upper control arm bushings are virtually impossible to replace without lifting the engine up 8-10 inches with a hoist. Poor design for maintenance. Most 3rd and 4th owners know nothing of these issues.

the upper control arm bushings are actually the most dangerous handling issue.

When the front end gets sloppy because of these three items...the car is so smooth that its hard to feel this issue.
The rear trailing beam suspension with Panhard rod...is not capable of controlling the rear if the front is not under proper directional and vibrational control .
Most people who wreck these cars do so on slightly wet pavement going through a curve at highway speed.
Most who actually die in these vehicles...die because they have no seat belt on and no airbag system. Ray


Last edited by raygreenwood on Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinda off topic but I dont think a lot of our sellers on here are very bright. I inquired about a set of wiper arms and the seller. Kept asking me dumb questions I had already answered almost like an automated system. I said I was paypal ready. All the guy had to do was forward his PP info and price I would have payed him. Instead he stopped responding after I got frustrated with his responses.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing quite more entertaining than watchin folks herd cats Laughing

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think buses are able to drive away from more head on collisions only because the engine is in the back. Very Happy But you can not drive away if your legs are chopped off below your knees by a parcel tray. Shocked
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RE topic…

I’m sure the two aforementioned package trays would have made the recent accident below worse, and although as a person that has built a company from scratch and applaud the wish to have a business of your own, I wonder what liability the sellers would have if the surviving victims decided to sue them for selling them an unsafe product… I/we built an “S” corporation it limited our liability to the assets of the company; but I doubt the sellers of the unsafe package trays have protected themselves from the possibility of losing every ting they own Shocked

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Driver trapped for 30 minutes Sad

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PS Re subtopic-

It is in this sort of accident that I think perhaps a Hurst type Roo Bar could reduce the intrusion into the drivers compartment, however that would not help as Ray has poignantly described:

Quote:
The airbag is designed to decelerate your sack of potatoes ass in about 2/100's of a second so that instant deceleration from the seat belt and inertial reel system does not let your guts smash up against your ribcage...or your brain slosh up against your skull.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes.....and that nice photographic illustration does does reinforce your original point. Point taken. In the face of this whole thread....thinking about it....every little thing you can do to make a bus safer is good.

Its not a safe vehicle in the modern driving world. But.....neither is any other pastime worth doing so dont let it stop you!
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes and let's put in a safari window kit! Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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