Rear drum brake spacer mod

[MayorMcCheese]

Until Terry pointed out that the shoes float a few pages back I would have agreed with the spacer mod.

I think that's where this long misunderstanding has come from. It all makes sense now.
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wv2yb0252gg092706

[j_dirge]

[Terry Kay]

The pins are supposed to be loose or they would be fixed permanently.

The only reason you might asume they are fixed is they usually are frozen in the holder's from one simple act---Rust , Petrolis neglectus.

Free & lube them up and watch how the shoes ride different on the drums when the brakes are applied.
As the vehicle rolls forward they will have a tendancy to climb up with the rotation of the drum making full contact.
Ever notice how your brakes don't work as good going in reverse as they do going forward?
This is because the leading shoe isn't getting yanked as hard going backwards.

So, back to drum brake basics again;
Changing the angle of attack on the bottom piviot pin isn't going to cause the brakes to get full, even contact with the drums, it's just shoving that area of shoe closer into the bottom of the drum.
The Only thing that you can do is radius the shoe to get even distance, the correct parrallel even contact area between it and the drum, and make sure the lower pivot pin is loose & lubed in the lower holder.
Keep an eye on how nice & even your brakes function & wear.
Do be sure the springs are good, and are in the correct place on the shoes.
Use all new hardware when installing them.
Make sure that the cylinder's are operating evenly--front & back side evenly will make for good, even brake shoe operation.

Hey--paint the face of the shoes black like they did in 1936.
Keep an eye on how the face of the shoes wear--you'll have verification of exactly what I've been telling you,and I think they ran this test up until 20,000 miles and they were still riding with even, full contact

"Just" shimming & moving the lower pivot pins out on your Vanagon is not the answer for even and full contact on the rear brake shoes.

Oh--I'm sorry, I think I have mentioned that a time or two in my prior life--Plus you can clearly see this in the brake operation movies I found & posted.

I hope I didn't miss anything, or forgot something beyond the demonstration of the movie clips.
I think this covered it all , and is pretty easy to see what is supposed to happen in the rear drums when the brakes are applied & functioning properly.

No shims required.
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T.K.

[rubbachicken]

i know we keep going over this terry,
removing the pivot and installing the shim, does free up the pivot point, it's all lubed up when it goes back together, this fact i'm not arguing with, but FACT it puts more shoe surface area onto the drum, it might just be that the modern shoes we are buying these days do not have as much meat on, and maybe the drums are within tolerance but bigger than original, smaller shoes and bigger drums will give space, rubbing the shoes to make them fit the drums better, again is going to effectively making them smaller.

my point is that maybe you should try it, who know's you might find it actually improves on it.

i'm done arguing, i find it works, i don't think there was much in the VW peoples parts and service department, about adding bigger front rotors and calipers, or rear rotors period.

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lucy our westy

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[crazyvwvanman]

Maybe this photo will clear up some of the smoke screen. The intent of the shims under the pivot pins is to push the bottom ends of the shoes closer to the drum so more of the lower lining area will contact the drum area and not just the top of the shoe. Earlier VW buses with very similar rear brake geometry put threaded pivot pins down there so the length of the pins could be increased as needed. Clearly the length of the pivot pin matters and changing it can have a positive effect or the VW factory must have been nuts to base the periodic adjustment of the brakes on intentionally changing that length over time. Vanagons got a self adjusting mechanism instead but the underlying geometry of the basic brake function remained the same.

Mark

[j_dirge]

[Vanagon Nut]

Thanks Mark. This is what I thought but obviously wasn't certain.

All very interesting; as have others, I'm sure, I did not take shoe movement when brakes are applied.

As we've noted, "Devils in the details".

Thanks for those shoe images. Not to take this too far OT, but I contacted Porterfield. The lining on brake shoes for a Vanagon are 6 mm thick.
I'd be curious to order some and measure. If I do, I'll post that. Would be interesting to compare that to the OEM shoe lining thickness.

Neil.

[kamzcab86]

[j_dirge]

[Terry Kay]

Why even bother trying to update a weak drum brake set up?

I think dialing in a rear disc brakes would be a much wiser move than trying to adapt type 2 shoes to a Vanagon backing plate.

Be time & brake performance ahead not even considering what that funky set up would cost.
For my time & money this would
be a much smarter move in my opinion.
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T.K.

[1vw4x4]

Mark,
First a note about your comment. I think you would make a great
director of technology for this form. Your comments here are well said, and very politically correct. I personally have ripped your friend a new
rear end.

Now about this brake issue: Vanagon rear brakes are in no way, floating
brakes. Floating brakes do not have any solid anchor point except the wheel cylinder. Trucks typically (years ago) had a second fixed point
as vanagons do. This is not a bad system, if maintained and put together
correctly. If I can detect the brake shoes alignment, based on old shoe
wear, I will shim accordingly. This has always provided me a good pedal
feel, and a very good E-brake.

[atomatom]

[Terry Kay]

<<Now about this brake issue: Vanagon rear brakes are in no way, floating
brakes. Floating brakes do not have any solid anchor point except the wheel cylinder.>>

Not to dig any new holes here, but I can't allow the masses to be poisoned with incorrect info.

All modern automotive drum brakes float--
Fixed brake shoes pivot on the bottom with a mounted fixed rivet or shouldered bolt, which do not float at all--they push straight out to the drum on the top and bottom, usually either with 2 wheel cylinders or just a plain pin securing the bottom of the shoe.

The Vanagon has a floating rear drum brake system, off the bottom pivot point, depending on the lower pivot point to be free and able to move when the brakes are applied.

This is just the way it is, unless of course you have model T Ford brakes on the back end of your Van--then they would be fixed--non-floating.
To verify, go to the last Chevy movie I posted and take a look at the two distinct rear brake set up's--fixed & floating--back in 1934.
This will allow you to grasp the floating concept for even rear shoe contact to the drums.
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T.K.

[1vw4x4]

""Not to dig any new holes here, but I can't allow the masses to be poisoned with incorrect info.""

Terry you have poisoned this entire form, and constantly dig yourself into a hole. Maybe you will learn something .

Here you can see some examples of real floating brakes. Note the bottom
on one brake shoe is only connected to the other brake shoe. Nothing
else at the bottom of the shoe is hard anchored.

Here is the only thing floating on my vanagon brakes.

[Terry Kay]

That is correct sir.
And with this in mind, please elaborate on how the bottom of the shoes on your Vanagon are permanently pinned or riveted to the bottom of the backing plate for the lower pivots in your brake drum.
Remember--I said "SHOES"
They aren't, or can't possibly be or they would never self adjust.
The lower portion of the SHOES slide within in the two pins on the bottom of the backing plate--are not permantently attached.

Your confusing the lower mounts being attached to the backing plate & equating that to the shoes, which is very wrong.

Sorry Charlie, very incorrect.
Get that ironed out and you'll have it all figured out.

Don't go feeding the crew poison here with your incorrect assumed info.
The position of the automatic adjuster be it on the top or bottom doesn't change what type of floating brakes you have--just a different design of the adjuster, not the shoe operation.
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T.K.

[Terry Kay]

Link


This is a picture of a "Fixed" , non floating brake shoe--it's pinned permanently on the bottom of the shoe.
Your Vanagon brakes look & operatate like this?
Absolutley not.
Fixed automotive non-floating brakes went out with the hand cranked engine.

Now take a good look at this Vanagon Brake Asssembly.
Please tell me where the bottom of the shoes are permanently attached to the brake backing plate--"fixed", bolted, pinned, riveted.
It isn't.
They float in the bottom holder for max contact to the drum when the brakes are applied--FYI---It's called & is well known worldly as a floating drum brake .
The only things that retain them to the backing plate are the spring hardware, and allows movement of the shoes to the drum.

Pehaps in Pa. they have another variety of braking systems that are not known anywhere else on the planet.
But for all of the other normal folk out there--it's as I have it described, Chevy has it documented, and this is just the way it is--no up's , no extra's, no pins, no pads, & for sure not ever the Eric Zenor Diode way --
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T.K.

[djkeev]

[Gruppe B]

Great Thread!
How did 1vw4x4 get banned

[Terry Kay]

You are correct Dave.

Why or how did you assume the lower brake shoe pivots were at an angle?
The mounts for the pivots are at an angle, that's plain to see, but the two piviots are flat to the shoe.
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T.K.

[candyman]