Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Little Buddy-type portable heater for Van?
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
indytriple
Samba Member


Joined: April 27, 2009
Posts: 710
Location: Brownsburg, Indiana
indytriple is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have a Buddy Heater and like it. We use the van all winter, and we go skiing a lot. We use it in ski resort parking lots and at campsites where we don't have access to electricity. I typically crack one of the slider windows about 3/4", which, oddly enough, is exactly the 9 square inches recommended in the instructions. When the top is up on the Westy I find that there is definitely more air exchange and the window can be cracked a bit less.

We have some minor moisture issues, but mostly just damp windshields on the inside, and a bit of ice/frost on the inside of windows. The more people we have in the van, the greater the moisture. When we have 4 in the van with 2 dogs it gets humid, but generally not unmanageable unless it is raining outside and the conditions are already very humid.

I'm in the process of switching from using 1lb cylinders to a small refillable propane tank to run my Westy stove, my Coleman 2-burner stove and the Heater Buddy. I'm tired of the cost and waste of the 1lb cylinders, but I want to retain a small, portable, flexible propane solution. I'm currently trying to decide between a Worthington 1.4 gallon aluminum propane cylinder (beautiful, but expensive at $150) or a Worthington 1 gallon steel propane cylinder (compact and practical at $53). I will probably opt for the 1 gallon as our propane usage is very low, and a one gallon tank would easily last us for a 3-5 day winter ski/camping trip. In the summer we'd just be cooking with it, and it would last us more like 1.5-2 weeks.

We use a $35 Holmes Heater Model HFH436WGL-UM plug-in fan when we have access to electricity (a Consumer Reports best buy). It's quiet, seems durable, and the ability to set a timer is nice when you want to sleep in the cold but want to wake up in a warm van.
_________________
"See The Glass As Already Broken."

87 Vanagon Westy Auto Bostig

www.bluegrassbicyclecompany.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Classifieds Feedback
Team WorldTour Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 2312
Location: Der Vaterland
Team WorldTour is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted before, but I guess that had no weight.
As I said before, my wife and I used the 'Portable Buddy' for a YEAR, traveling through Canada in our van, Domo.
Yes, we had the front window cracked (we had rain guards on). There was never any smell, there was never any wet anything. Our only real fear (unfounded) was kicking off the blankets and having them land on the heater. But, really, at those temps, wild horses couldn't have pulled those blankets off!
It has a fan to move air around. Twenty minutes on in the morning, and the van is toasty warm for brekky making. Put it on high, and you could lounge about in your undies.
_________________
1990 Feldjäger Syncro AAZ
Click to view image
H6 Subaru Engine Swap Thread
WV2ZZZ25ZFH094138(x)/ WV2YB0257LH057308(x)/ WV2ZZZ25ZLG113270/
"Where am I going? And what am I doing in this handbasket?" -Nicodemus Jordan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
RocketBox
Samba Member


Joined: March 20, 2014
Posts: 354
Location: Boise, ID
RocketBox is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

while i haven't camped in the vanagon and my big buddy heater yet - i used it for several years in an old pop-up and have used it as of later to do some interior work in the single digits and to warm the interior up when it's super cold and my heater blower motors weren't working.

in 8 degrees - it takes about 9 minutes to get the van pretty warm with the big buddy on high and the fan blowing.

i was surprised at the condensation produced. seriously - alot - way more than i expected... but if it came down to staying toasty warm & having moisture on my windows or freezing my ass off, i'd gladly pick staying warm.
_________________
84 Vanagon - tintop, 1.9L wbx. Complete Rebuild done August 2014. 2000~ miles on it so far... SOLD

80 Vanagon Camper ASI Riveria - subaru 2.2 conversion project. 1993 Subary legacy donor car + Riveria = AWESOME!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bluefirefly
Samba Member


Joined: March 16, 2011
Posts: 438
Location: Calgary, Ab
bluefirefly is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RocketBox wrote:
in 8 degrees - it takes about 9 minutes to get the van pretty warm with the big buddy on high and the fan blowing.

i was surprised at the condensation produced. seriously - alot - way more than i expected... but if it came down to staying toasty warm & having moisture on my windows or freezing my ass off, i'd gladly pick staying warm.


We did once in the past too, about -15F outside for a whole night but my wife didn't like the feeling or smell of it even with 4 windows cracked open (about 1").

The condensation was inside, lots of it and especially behind all panels. There was still ice behind the sliding door panel (on the metal itself, frozen drops....) and even above the rear wheel well behind the panel and it was about 2 weeks after the trip! Well, those were the only 2 panels I had to take of.....
And Alberta is a really dry climate, cold but dry!

Best mod ever for us: Propex!

Yes, we still have some condensation, breathing condensation but a lot less than before and nothing behind our door panel.
_________________
86 Syncro Tintop G60
work in progress ...as always!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
danfromsyr
Samba Member


Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 13164
Location: Syracuse, NY
danfromsyr is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the little buddys are a great intro to cold weather camping
heck we'd use it to sit by with the door open on that semi-chilly mid july night (ie not winter) it's pleasant to have nearby.
but after a couple years of juggling it around in side then we got a dog (or child for some) and it's no longer as safe from bumps etc.. you get tired of the whiff of burned fur from a tail swish.
and the condensation.. was horrible during a mid-40's rainy night, the condensation on the windshield would screw up my DMV registration tag (paper)

I put a propex in this fall.
we run a RV furnace in my brother's van and installing on in Mom's camper this winter. the 12~16,000 BTU small RV furnaces aren't as efficient, but for that casual useage they're $1/2 initial costs.. but 75% efficient vs propex ~90% rating and occupy the full small cubby space near the water tank.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jon_slider
Samba Member


Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
Jon_slider is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.adventurerv.net/atwood-everest-star-8012-furnace-12000-btus-p-8605.html
Atwood Hydroflame, also used in the Adventurewagen, 12,000 BTU. Current draw of 1.8 amps, $537.00
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


http://westyventures.com/propex.html
Propex 2000, 6500btu, 1.4 amps, $695.00
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Espar aka Airtronics aka Eberspacher D2 (diesel) Furnace, $1049.
http://www.esparparts.com/202820690285-p-25125.html
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Has 4 automatic fan speeds and heat outputs; Boost 7,500 btu, 2.8amps. High 6,500 btu 1.8amps. Med 4,100btu, 1amp. Low 2,900 btu, .7amps. There is also a more rare, and more expensive, ~$1500, gasoline version Espar B1LC (in stock at) http://www.esparparts.com/espar-airtronic-b1lc-heater-truck-p-25393.html

The Atwood fills the cubby by the bench seat, and requires a hole through the body. The Propex is much smaller and fits next to, is less than half as tall as, or can replace, the stock rear heater, requires holes through the floor of the van. Espar is similar to Propex in length and installation.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco


Last edited by Jon_slider on Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:58 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Timwhy
Samba Member


Joined: January 01, 2009
Posts: 3690
Location: Maine
Timwhy is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used my Heater Buddy under my BD EZ Awning with the flaps down and the door zipped up and
it heats the entire space. No need for ventilation as there are plenty of gaps and I have never smelled any
fumes.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
'15 Audi A3 Quattro
'09 VW Tiguan (dead)
'87 VW Westy
'91 Tin Top
'90 Cabby
What the Westy wants the Westy GETS


http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php?search_author=Timwhy&show_results=summary

http://www.youtube.com/user/TIMWHY2?feature=mhee
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MayorMcCheese
Samba Member


Joined: October 07, 2009
Posts: 511
Location: Lancaster PA
MayorMcCheese is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IdahoDoug wrote:
Mayor,

I think the Big Buddy needs 9 inches, which is about a 3/4 inch gap of one front window. Not 4.5 square which would be 3 times the minimum.


I just double checked and my manual says 4.25x4.25 (18" square) minimum. Mine is brand new, the manual says it was revised 2/14 so maybe they changed their recommendation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jon_slider
Samba Member


Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
Jon_slider is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This manual for the Little Buddy
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Heater-F215100-3800-BTU-Indoor-Safe/dp/B001CFRF7I says:
"This heater requires a vent area of 4 square inches (ex- ample 2” x 2” opening) minimum for adequate ventila- tion during operation."

This manual for the Portable Buddy
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/szmanuals/01bd9542c0bb20c31d3770ee388f41fb says:
"Provide minimum fresh air opening of 9 square inches (example 3” x 3” opening)."

For the Big Buddy
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

the manual http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Heater-MH18B-Portable-Propane/dp/B0002WRHE8 says:
"This heater requires a vent area of 18 square inches (example 4 1/4” x 4 1/4” opening) minimum for adequate ventilation during operation."
_________________
My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
IdahoDoug
Samba Member


Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10007
Location: N. Idaho
IdahoDoug is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the update on venting. Will be sure to do that. Hoping to take my daughter snow shoeing, but temps warming today - grrr.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2016 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential. 1988 Mitsubishi Van w/ dual spinny seats, mid engine and solid axle.1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1992 Lexus LS400, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa project in pieces, 2002 BMW 325iX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
davevickery
Samba Member


Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
davevickery is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt the venting changed. Maybe you are talking about different units. There is a standard of 1 inch per X BTUs for these type heaters. I doubt you needed any venting in a vanagon, more a matter of comfort and stuffiness. Imagine a completely sealed rubber box that only needed 18 sq inches of venting. Vs a west with gaps everywhere. I always had a window cracked but it didn't seem to help. These really work well as an awake only heater. If you need a sleeping heater buy a real RV furnace.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
WestyBob
Samba Member


Joined: June 11, 2004
Posts: 2346
Location: Portland, Oregon
WestyBob is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

davevickery wrote:
These really work well as an awake only heater. If you need a sleeping heater buy a real RV furnace.


That about says it all in a nutshell - well put Dave. I have both the midsize and small or 'Little' Mr Heater Buddy models, as depicted by Jon, and both will toast the inside of a Westy, even with the skylight opened slightly and/or one side window cracked which is the way I do it. I 'think' it may be fine to run them that way (with the venting) while sleeping but simply don't want to take the risk.

I noticed in the pic of the midsized Buddy the handle now seems to fold down for storage. My older midsize has a fixed handle which makes it a pain to store due to the height. The 'Little' Buddy is much more compact and storable but puts out slightly less heat than the midsize job -- but not a big issue difference inside a westy in my experience.

So far I've never had an issue with inside condensation connected to the Buddy heaters, even with four inside BS-ing in the evenings. Perhaps more an issue at much higher altitudes ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
photogdave
Samba Member


Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 2850
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
photogdave is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WestyBob wrote:
So far I've never had an issue with inside condensation connected to the Buddy heaters, even with four inside BS-ing in the evenings. Perhaps more an issue at much higher altitudes ?


Good question! I've only ever used these types of heaters on the ski hill and always have heaps of condensation build-up, even with venting.
I've never tried one at sea level though.
_________________
89 Syncro GL Westfalia 2.1 WBX/WBXaustSS

My Westy Movies:
photogdave On Vimeo
photogdave On YouTube

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MarkWard
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 13397
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
MarkWard is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We were in Yellowstone for 3 days at the end of May camping in the valley. It was sunny, rainy, snowy, and cold all in the same day. We used Mr Buddy to take the chill off of the van, not to heat it. Using it this way we got about 3 days out of a bottle. For the cost and ease of storage you can't really beat them. Well better that being wet and cold. Without it, the trip would have been close to miserable for us.

We have since upgraded to an Espar. If you want emergency type heat, Mr Buddy fits the bill. If you want central heat, you really need to consider one of the built in ones above.
_________________
1982 Vanagon Camper with ALH TDI.
1990 Vanagon Camper Syncro.
In Car https://youtu.be/5hbfdUJR88Q
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
tam_shops
Samba Member


Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 1525
Location: Vancouver BC
tam_shops is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you! Will check there first! It's so wet here right now!
photogdave wrote:
tam_shops wrote:
I'm ordering more of those DryEeze things next Amazon order!

You can pick up the hanger ones locally at West Marine or similar.
I get the big bottles of their crystals for home use from Canadian Tire.



Ooooh, that makes way more sense! Thank you! I knew the Buddy heaters added moisture, but had never heard/read anything like what I experienced. It was POURING rain that weekend, so in/out wet, wet, wet!
IdahoDoug wrote:
Yeah, a wet climate to begin with makes moisture buildup kinda crazy. Active raining is quite a challenge no matter what. Even jumping back in the van with a wet slicker on just brought in moisture equivalent to an hour of heater use. Plus the undercarriage is wet upon engine shut down and heat of the drivetrain is surrounding the van with a rising column of moist air going into vehicle panels, ventilation system, etc for a half hour. I don't know how people deal with constant heavy rain, though having an awning out so you can take wet stuff off under shelter and leave it outside would be huge.

Has anyone ever looked into a compact dehumidifier in terms of electric load and feasibility of running one in the van?


Too much heavy breathing. LOL I get what is saying about the rain. Hate the rain! I have a rotating, oscillating electric heater w/ thermostat that I much prefer when I have shore power. Thanks!
djkeev wrote:

Tam, I'm guessing that your extreme moisture build up came from a small group of people breathing, not so much from an hour of heater use.
Cold, humid, closed up box with people in it = inside rain.

I have the Portable Buddy (BTW........ just learned that!) but I also have a small ceramic 110v unit. The 110v unit is used whenever shore power is available.

Dave

_________________
1987 Vanagon Westfalia GL Automatic

Making it special:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=545885
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
westyventures
Samba Member


Joined: December 29, 2004
Posts: 2171
Location: South central Oregon
westyventures is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon_slider wrote:
http://www.adventurerv.net/atwood-everest-star-8012-furnace-12000-btus-p-8605.html
Atwood Hydroflame, also used in the Adventurewagen, 12,000 BTU. Current draw of 1.8 amps, $537.00


FWIW, Atwood and all similar US-made contraptions use input BTU as the advertised number. At 75% efficiency, the Atwood '12,000 btu' is actually only 9000 btu output. This makes the Atwood's output actually less than a Propex HS2800, which in testing has often exceeded spec, putting out over 10,000 btu. Otherwise, your numbers for output are spot on. Smile
_________________
Karl Mullendore
www.westyventures.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jon_slider
Samba Member


Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
Jon_slider is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Portland is an example of what I consider mild climate, and low altitude. Daytime temps never go below 45F, night never below 35F. Elevation 50 ft
Highest: 1,188 ft, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon

It is possible people who DO smell the fumes of a Heater Buddy, is a group that uses them above 6000ft.
Also, there is less oxygen at higher altitude, and this may increase the fumes odor from a Heater Buddy.

tam_shops wrote:
I knew the Buddy heaters added moisture, but had never heard/read anything like what I experienced. It was POURING rain that weekend, so in/out wet, wet, wet!


It may be unfair to blame the Heater Buddy as primary source of water condensation inside a van. Human breath may have a more significant impact, and any wet garments, and cooking steam.

The best way I know to dry out the inside of a van is to use a furnace, or one of the shore power electric heaters with a fan.

When I was ski camping, I always had frozen condensation on the inside of my windows in the morning, I sleep with a heavy down comforter, head towards the rear hatch, and usually didn't run the Propex when sleeping.

With heater off overnight, I did several tests. Cracking a window open, cracking 4 windows open, skylight open, top up, top down… I got the least condensation overnight, if I put the top UP, and OPENED the front window of the tent. I always had at least some condensation on the rear window, above my head.

IF I ran the Propex overnight, I could close up the van, and would have about 75% less condensation compared to sleeping with the Propex off. Just to be clear, I do NOT advocate sleeping with a Heater Buddy running.
_________________
My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
IdahoDoug
Samba Member


Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10007
Location: N. Idaho
IdahoDoug is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I like my Buddy, a certain amount of condensation does come from combusting its fuel. Somebody smarter than me did the calculation as to how much compared to normal breathing condensation. Unless the kids are aboard, I would say we generally are not normal breathing - heh!!

Doug
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2016 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential. 1988 Mitsubishi Van w/ dual spinny seats, mid engine and solid axle.1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1992 Lexus LS400, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa project in pieces, 2002 BMW 325iX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
WestyBob
Samba Member


Joined: June 11, 2004
Posts: 2346
Location: Portland, Oregon
WestyBob is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon_slider wrote:
Portland is an example of what I consider mild climate, and low altitude. Daytime temps never go below 45F, night never below 35F. Elevation 50 ft
Highest: 1,188 ft, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon


Jon -- I don't know anyone in Portland who westy camps in Portland except visitors maybe in someone's driveway. Wink

We camp, like others on the left coast, on the coast, in the mountains, and in the high desert. Maybe ranging 3000' to 6000' above msl in the latter give or take.

I tend to agree condensation could be at least in part from bringing in the wet into a small westy box space along with breathe and body heat. Higher humidity can contribute but we don't usually have that much in the PNW. But if someone or more enters their westy from the cold, has wet clothes and shoes, maybe has been exercising in some way and turns on the heat, I can see how the evaporation can overwhelm the westy interior until vented. Think of it as a warming steam box.

But so far I've never experienced it with 'dry'people and the heater buddy cranking away. The closest I've come is cross-country skiing all day in the Cascades, hopping in the back of the rig to change wet clothes while enjoying the drying/warming effect of the heater buddy on the bod -- a little fogging on the windows but with the skylight open it seems to handle it quickly. So ... so far I can't chalk it up to the heater buddy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Sodo
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 6178
Location: Western WA
Sodo is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: Little Buddy-type portable heater for Van? Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Coffee warmer mod for a "Portable Buddy" heater.
An exercise in wire-bending.
The wire used is the handle from a 5-gallon plastic pail.

You have to set the coffeecup handle "away" (in the shadow).
And drink from the "shadow side" too.

Cuz you'll note that the coffee will boil on the hot side in a few minutes.

This mod is not for everyone, just for those who like classical coffee cups.
Perhaps the "air-cooled crowd" Wink

Most folks should just use a modern "insulated mug" that doesn't need re-heating. Rolling Eyes
_________________


EJ25, Peloquin diff, locker, transaxle oil cooler/filtration system
....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
Gear oil is like underwear.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 4 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB