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jtauxe 
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2004
Posts: 5780
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
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 Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:51 am Post subject: |
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If I may...
Could you please edit the title of your post to reflect the subject? That would be helpful to others who may be asking the same questions.
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John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD
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kevlarian
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Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:13 am Post subject: |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. I was going to ask the same thing. It will help for future searches by folks that are looking for help.
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my65vert
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 6186
Location: Middleburg, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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your front discs will work fine without the booster. also, it is very easy to bolt on 71 and newer rear hubs, they are a direct switch. you will also be able to sell your older ones as they are desireable in good condition.
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OGJHC
Kombisutra;
I'm starting to get little wafts of bus stink coming from the north. Something about the unique scent of drivers seat padding when it's glued together with mouse piss and shit that really gets me going... and I'm smelling it! Oh yeah! Time to start loading up the equipment. |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| my65vert wrote: |
| it is very easy to bolt on 71 and newer rear hubs, they are a direct switch. |
Direct switch? 
Don't forget:
-Swapping to the late stub axle to make up the 1" difference
-The different outer bearing (and race)
-The lower quality inner bearing race
-The different sized inner spacer (I'll buy your early spacers if you do this.)
-Late hubs deleted the outer circlip, so you could have an issue there, maybe not.
If you want to get picky, you can also contemplate your existence while mulling over the two styles of castellated nuts, early (serious,) and late, (less beefy.) The aftermarket nuts are garbage, I've seen them destroy perfectly good stub axles.
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| my65vert wrote: |
| it is very easy to bolt on 71 and newer rear hubs, they are a direct switch. |
Direct switch?
Don't forget:
-Swapping to the late stub axle to make up the 1" difference
-The different outer bearing (and race)
-The lower quality inner bearing race
-The different sized inner spacer (I'll buy your early spacers if you do this.)
-Late hubs deleted the outer circlip, so you could have an issue there, maybe not.
If you want to get picky, you can also contemplate your existence while mulling over the two styles of castellated nuts, early (serious,) and late, (less beefy.) The aftermarket nuts are garbage, I've seen them destroy perfectly good stub axles. |
Sounds to me like the best plan would be to swap the entire hub/bearing carrier assembly with stub axle and brakes. The bolt pattern to the trailing arm/spring plate is the same, as are the parking brake cable (I think the late one fits the early bus) and the brake hydro lines and CV joints.
Install fresh bearings (unless old ones pass inspection) and make sure the brake cylinders and shoes are up to snuff, and away you go!
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:16 am Post subject: |
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That would probably be a better solution, plus the later buses (I don't know what year cutoff) have a cut out for the metal line through the trailing arm. This would be a good time to add that.
Robbie
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
That would probably be a better solution, plus the later buses (I don't know what year cutoff) have a cut out for the metal line through the trailing arm. This would be a good time to add that.
Robbie |
That cutout appeared sometime in late 69-early 70 (I think). An easy mod once you have everything apart.
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kevlarian
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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So the front seems SUPER simple (compared to the rear). I am going to test the front without the booster. I am buying the booster, and if I feel I need to add it to the system, I'll always be able to do that. The front DISK without booster CANNOT BE WORSE THAN THE DRUMS ON THERE ALREADY!!! Seriously.
And if I figure it still isn't good enough... I'll add the booster (weld up a mount and all).
The rear on the other hand... Anyone have a HOW TO? I tried searching and couldn't find anything in particular.
If I were to 'source' all the parts second had, what is my parts list that I would need to make this happen. |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| kevlarian wrote: |
I am buying the booster and a good used proportioning valve, since the front DISCS without the booster ARE SO MUCH WORSE THAN WELL-ADJUSTED DRUMS!!! Seriously.
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I fixed it for you.
Robbie
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| kevlarian wrote: |
I am buying the booster and a good used proportioning valve, since the front DISCS without the booster ARE SO MUCH WORSE THAN WELL-ADJUSTED DRUMS!!! Seriously.
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I fixed it for you.
Robbie |
Yeah, properly adjusted/operating drum brakes work quite well. They just tend to fade easily and lose their function when wet. If your drum brakes aren't stopping well, there is a problem somewhere.
That said, disc brakes are much easier to install/repair/service generally. I can do the front pads in my Toyota truck in about 25-30 minutes, and that includes the time to jack it up and take the wheels off. Pads are $15, too.
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| kevlarian wrote: |
The rear on the other hand... Anyone have a HOW TO? I tried searching and couldn't find anything in particular.
If I were to 'source' all the parts second had, what is my parts list that I would need to make this happen. |
I just did some searching and so far have found nothing about, or pictures of the rear brake swap. But, if you buy everything from a late bay rear excluding the tranny, spring plates, and trailing arms, you should have what you need. It will include the brake assembly, and the entire rear bearing carrier/stub axle housing (not sure what the specific title is for that part) with the stub axles.
This view shows the rear bearing carrier (no part number, as they are not available) and all related rear end parts. I see that it appears here that the inner trailing arm is one piece with the bearing carrier. Not sure if that is true on late bays.
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/wolfsburg_new/rear_axle/bus_rear_axle/bus_rear_axle_68on.cfm?type=2
The main difference with the early bay brakes is that the drum is one piece, not the two piece drum/hub combo like the exploded diagram shows.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| kevlarian wrote: |
The rear on the other hand... Anyone have a HOW TO? I tried searching and couldn't find anything in particular.
If I were to 'source' all the parts second had, what is my parts list that I would need to make this happen. |
This view shows the rear bearing carrier (no part number, as they are not available) and all related rear end parts. I see that it appears here that the inner trailing arm is one piece with the bearing carrier. Not sure if that is true on late bays.
The main difference with the early bay brakes is that the drum is one piece, not the two piece drum/hub combo like the exploded diagram shows. |
WW has a simplified version of the late bay model, and they don't show all the parts for either. The original fiche has the late bay setup with all part numbers for both. And I don't think any bay has the trailing arm and hub/carrier as one piece; that's probably just so their website doesn't look like they're lacking many parts… 
Robbie
Thanks to Jerseylooker for the fiche dump.
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Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
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my65vert
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 6186
Location: Middleburg, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
| my65vert wrote: |
| it is very easy to bolt on 71 and newer rear hubs, they are a direct switch. |
Direct switch?
Don't forget:
-Swapping to the late stub axle to make up the 1" difference
-The different outer bearing (and race)
-The lower quality inner bearing race
-The different sized inner spacer (I'll buy your early spacers if you do this.)
-Late hubs deleted the outer circlip, so you could have an issue there, maybe not.
If you want to get picky, you can also contemplate your existence while mulling over the two styles of castellated nuts, early (serious,) and late, (less beefy.) The aftermarket nuts are garbage, I've seen them destroy perfectly good stub axles. |
Sounds to me like the best plan would be to swap the entire hub/bearing carrier assembly with stub axle and brakes. The bolt pattern to the trailing arm/spring plate is the same, as are the parking brake cable (I think the late one fits the early bus) and the brake hydro lines and CV joints.
Install fresh bearings (unless old ones pass inspection) and make sure the brake cylinders and shoes are up to snuff, and away you go! |
thats what i meant, changing out the entire rear hub assembly ..ALL of IT. IT is simple, Ive done it many times.
_________________
OGJHC
Kombisutra;
I'm starting to get little wafts of bus stink coming from the north. Something about the unique scent of drivers seat padding when it's glued together with mouse piss and shit that really gets me going... and I'm smelling it! Oh yeah! Time to start loading up the equipment.
Last edited by my65vert on Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| my65vert wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
Sounds to me like the best plan would be to swap the entire hub/bearing carrier assembly with stub axle and brakes. The bolt pattern to the trailing arm/spring plate is the same, as are the parking brake cable (I think the late one fits the early bus) and the brake hydro lines and CV joints.
Install the correct bearings (unless old ones pass inspection) and make sure the brake cylinders and shoes are up to snuff, and away you go! And remember that old brake shoes could contain asbestos. Please be careful and all that jazz. Also, rebuilt German brake cylinders might last longer than cheap aftermarket ones. |
thats what i meant, changing out the entire rear hub assembly ..ALL of IT. |
Ah. Well, if you feel inclined nobody can stop you. I've added my thoughts in bold.
I'll just keep driving in circles around the state with my drums that can lock the tires without taking my heel off the floor. 
Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com
Last edited by airschooled on Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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my65vert
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 6186
Location: Middleburg, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| my65vert wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
| my65vert wrote: |
| it is very easy to bolt on 71 and newer rear hubs, they are a direct switch. |
Direct switch?
Don't forget:
-Swapping to the late stub axle to make up the 1" difference
-The different outer bearing (and race)
-The lower quality inner bearing race
-The different sized inner spacer (I'll buy your early spacers if you do this.)
-Late hubs deleted the outer circlip, so you could have an issue there, maybe not.
If you want to get picky, you can also contemplate your existence while mulling over the two styles of castellated nuts, early (serious,) and late, (less beefy.) The aftermarket nuts are garbage, I've seen them destroy perfectly good stub axles. |
Sounds to me like the best plan would be to swap the entire hub/bearing carrier assembly with stub axle and brakes. The bolt pattern to the trailing arm/spring plate is the same, as are the parking brake cable (I think the late one fits the early bus) and the brake hydro lines and CV joints.
Install fresh bearings (unless old ones pass inspection) and make sure the brake cylinders and shoes are up to snuff, and away you go! |
thats what i meant, changing out the entire rear hub assembly ..ALL of IT. |
Ah. Well, if you feel inclined nobody can stop you. I
'll just keep driving in circles around the state with my drums that can lock the tires without taking my heel off the floor.
Robbie |
_________________
OGJHC
Kombisutra;
I'm starting to get little wafts of bus stink coming from the north. Something about the unique scent of drivers seat padding when it's glued together with mouse piss and shit that really gets me going... and I'm smelling it! Oh yeah! Time to start loading up the equipment. |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| kevlarian wrote: |
The rear on the other hand... Anyone have a HOW TO? I tried searching and couldn't find anything in particular.
If I were to 'source' all the parts second had, what is my parts list that I would need to make this happen. |
This view shows the rear bearing carrier (no part number, as they are not available) and all related rear end parts. I see that it appears here that the inner trailing arm is one piece with the bearing carrier. Not sure if that is true on late bays.
The main difference with the early bay brakes is that the drum is one piece, not the two piece drum/hub combo like the exploded diagram shows. |
WW has a simplified version of the late bay model, and they don't show all the parts for either. The original fiche has the late bay setup with all part numbers for both. And I don't think any bay has the trailing arm and hub/carrier as one piece; that's probably just so their website doesn't look like they're lacking many parts…
Robbie
Thanks to Jerseylooker for the fiche dump. |
^^^ This is the diagram I was trying to find, but I could not. thanks for posting it.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| my65vert wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
Sounds to me like the best plan would be to swap the entire hub/bearing carrier assembly with stub axle and brakes. The bolt pattern to the trailing arm/spring plate is the same, as are the parking brake cable (I think the late one fits the early bus) and the brake hydro lines and CV joints.
Install the correct bearings (unless old ones pass inspection) and make sure the brake cylinders and shoes are up to snuff, and away you go! And remember that old brake shoes could contain asbestos. Please be careful and all that jazz. Also, rebuilt German brake cylinders might last longer than cheap aftermarket ones. |
thats what i meant, changing out the entire rear hub assembly ..ALL of IT. |
Ah. Well, if you feel inclined nobody can stop you. I've added my thoughts in bold.
I'll just keep driving in circles around the state with my drums that can lock the tires without taking my heel off the floor.
Robbie |
What if the OP wants his rear bolt pattern to match his front bolt pattern?
Discs are definitely superior in many ways, no denying that fact.
my65vert, thanks for posting up. Your info is invaluable.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
What if the OP wants his rear bolt pattern to match his front bolt pattern?
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I'm assuming that's what he's doing, otherwise I don't think the late rear setup offers any perceivable stopping improvements. Does it? Changing brake shoes without removing the 250+ lb/ft-torqued axle nut is nice though!
| Quote: |
Discs are definitely superior in many ways, no denying that fact. |
ONLY traction is in play at impending lockup, (or complete lockup if you panic and don't practice panic-stopping  ,) and that depends on one thing: tire-to-surface friction. For improved stopping performance we can only try to modify the friction in play between the tires and the road. Your bus, screeching to a halt, doesn't care if it's a disc setup, drum setup, or a stick between the spokes; locked tires are locked tires. Friction can be modified through weight transfer, brake force ratio, (front to back,) suspension setup, and tons of other little details. If I can evenly lock my tires in all weather and driving conditions, my drums will continue to be in service. [This is a much larger discussion, better suited in another thread.]
I understand this is not for everyone, but I'm getting a little tired of driving power-assisted buses that take more foot pressure to stop than my "crap" (quoting kevlarian in a pm) drums. However, I'm NOT getting tired of those bus owners then driving my bus and complimenting the satisfying feel of a well-adjusted drum setup. I offered to let the OP drive my bus and then help get his to the same level, but I never received a response.
If anyone is too lazy to click four extra adjusting stars every other oil change, then maybe self-adjusting discs ARE the best solution! 
Please practice your panic stops,
Robbie
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