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[email protected]
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Joined: August 03, 2002
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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 Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:26 am Post subject: |
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of course it's possible that some AS causes it and some doesn't, but who needs that kind of headache to keep track of? Using nothing works fine if you don't leave the plugs in for 20+ years.
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chrisflstf
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Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| I read on another forum that plug manufacturers put an antiseize coating on the threads during manufacturing. Is that not true? |
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[email protected]
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Probably when they are making the threads during mfg. But then cleaned off. It's really probably a cutting oil or something similar to prevent galling.
The best plug threads are rolled, not cut. Much gentler on the threads in the head IMO.
I've seen O2 sensors and glow plugs come with it out-of-the-box, but never a spark plug.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Fred Winterburn wrote: |
"Fred is trying to blind you with science" Quokka, You should give credit where credit is due. I'm not the one who said that. I only said that the permatex anti-seize turned into a compound akin to concrete. (Ray doesn't believe it, but that's not my problem). To get back to the science question, I will say that a good electrical contact is important in any electrical circuit. The importance of the contact varies with electrical potential and current carrying requirements. Straightforward, and from Fred's mouth this time, Fred
| Quokka42 wrote: |
I don't often agree with Ray, but most anti-sieze compounds meant for this kind of use are designed to dry out, usually forming more of a powder than a cement. Fred is trying to blind you with science - dielectric strength is used to describe the breakdown voltage of insulators, and would not apply to any suitable anti-sieze, nor to any if appropriately applied. the low currents necessary in a spark plug would have no trouble conducting through the washer to the head, and the anti-sieze would be so thin in the threads that it would not significantly affect thermal conduction.
The VW bulletin regarding anti-sieze was concerned with over-application causing a short circuit across the insulator, and it turns out a drop of oil works OK for most applications. |
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Hey...sorry Fred....not saying you are lying by any means. Thats the sad thing about conversing over the internet. If we were both sitting at the bar you would see that I am genuinely interested...and not poking at you.....because turning into something as hard as "concrete" is just not in the chemistry of the anti-seize except at extreme temps.....but there are a zillion chemical reactions possible in life for a zillion reasons and I am always interested.
I mean...using the term turned to a concrete consistency is like saying the orange on your plate jumped up and turned into a bird which then raped your cat.....but as you note....maybe a funky lot...maybe contaminated....truth is often stranger than fiction.
As others have noted....when anti-seize sheds its oil it can be harder to get booth plugs or bolts out...in general with any high temp application. the question is....even with requiring torque higher than normal to remove the plug or bolt....did the threads gall? If not....then the anti-seize did exactly what it was supposed to.
As John noted....I have also seen anti-seize related connectivity issues (albeit on newer ignition systems).
Not seeing it on older systems like ours ...does not mean that it does not happen...just that the result is smaller and harder to see...maybe. Resistance to ground on high current applications will not be properly measured at rest.
It needs to be measured under load as potential.
Sorry...I will quit interrupting. Ray |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| I read on another forum that plug manufacturers put an antiseize coating on the threads during manufacturing. Is that not true? |
No...they dont. What people are referring to is actually a bit of a misnomer.
They are referring to numerous manufacturing process treatments that "enhance" the ability of the plug not to gall in otherwise healthy threads.
In some american plugs like Autolite, Motorcraft and AC with the black oxide coated threads....the oxide itself has some very limited benefit in thet it readily absorbs a light oil into the pores of the surface and gets scrubbed away a little bit upon insertion. You will find this benefit...what benefit is given.... is gone when you remove the plug to check or gap. Throw it away and get a new one.
These have few if any problems with cast iron heads. the black oxide has a reasonable amount of problems with aluminum heads...simply because the oxide plating has a high amount of texture/surface area for the aluminum to extrude into.
Other plugs like Beru, Bosch, NGK and Nippondenso pretty much use mostly a nickle plating on the threads.
Some who use this as a "marketing" tool list this nickle plating as "anti-seize".....which is reasonably....partially...true.....mainly in the fact that nickle plating makes such a slick, low porosity, hard thread that there is little surface area for the aluminum to extrude into and stick to.
However...if your aluminum threads are already unhealthy and have has surface galling, are rough or have had material scratched away by grit from previous plugs...even a slick nickle plating may not save you from tearing threads up.
Start with good threads...use plated plugs....use a very light, clean oil sparingly...and a proper torque wrench and your threads in the head should stay clean for ages.
If a company is suggesting that the nickel plating is sacrificial as wears away and provides an anti-seize lubricant....they are FOS....because aluminum is just not hard enough to do that to nickle plate. Ray |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| double post delete. |
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chrisflstf
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| If a company is suggesting that the nickel plating is sacrificial as wears away and provides an anti-seize lubricant |
Thats exactly what I read on a Hyundai forum. Supposedly from a Rep for the Manufacturer |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If a company is suggesting that the nickel plating is sacrificial as wears away and provides an anti-seize lubricant |
Thats exactly what I read on a Hyundai forum. Supposedly from a Rep for the Manufacturer |
Yep....think about the hardness of nickle plated steel as compared to aluminum....and contemplate as to whether that could even happen.
What this usually is....is an employee dutifully repeating that the plating has anti-seize properties.....but interpreting how it happens based on how he "thinks" it happens. Ray
EDIT:.....so I checked up on a fee links. I may stand to be corrected.....but maybe not.
NGK has literature online listing their plating as "trivalent" nickel plating to both be anti corrosion and help protect the female threads in the head.....their words.
I only know enough about platings to be semi useful and mildly dangerous....Trivalent platings are only special in that they are much less toxic than hexavalent ions (rememeber hexavalent chrome....chrome 6?...nasty bad).
Typically trivalent nickle plating is either nickle zinc or nickle chrome. Either way its normally a protectant and inengineering class plating....quite hard. A good bit of science babble going on. Ray |
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modok
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Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'm still not convinced there is a problem that needs solving.
90% of the time the problem is plugs were crossthreaded, left in too long, or head is cracked or both or all three. A nickel/zink plated plug SHOULD have a lower torque value than a black coated one I wonder how many times taht gets overlooked???
Used the autolite plugs a lot too, five years ago they had smoother threads than NGK, now they don't. Haven't had one stick.
Lube with one drop of oil from the dipstick.
I'm gonna keep using the cheap plugs just to spite you old timers that think you need special gunk...... that's just an upsale at the parts counter 
disclaimer: with 1/2 reach plugs. Other designs(long reach/ford)....possibly there is a problem there,,,,, Had to deal with lots of those but I can honestly say never had a 1/2 reach plug stuck without reason! |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| modok wrote: |
I'm still not convinced there is a problem that needs solving.
90% of the time the problem is plugs were crossthreaded, left in too long, or head is cracked or both or all three. A nickel/zink plated plug SHOULD have a lower torque value than a black coated one I wonder how many times taht gets overlooked???
Used the autolite plugs a lot too, five years ago they had smoother threads than NGK, now they don't. Haven't had one stick.
Lube with one drop of oil from the dipstick.
I'm gonna keep using the cheap plugs just to spite you old timers that think you need special gunk...... that's just an upsale at the parts counter
disclaimer: with 1/2 reach plugs. Other designs(long reach/ford)....possibly there is a problem there,,,,, Had to deal with lots of those but I can honestly say never had a 1/2 reach plug stuck without reason! |
Usually the problem that makes plug threads require anti-seize lube...is old crappy, galled threads....or poorly rolled rough threads.
I agree....there is not a problem as long as you can keep them that way.
Dont confuse a smoother "feeling" fastener to your fingers and ear with whats happening at the metal surface.
I know what you ard getting at. The nickel plated plugs are .....for lack of a better word...."chattery" or squeeky going in. Thats a harder smoother surface (the plug threads) against a rougher surface (the threads in the head).
This is not where galling occurs. It occurs once you torque the plug and load the threads. If the harder thread is porous. ....you get extrusion of the softer metal into those pores.....galling...and lost metal from the aluminum thread.
Black oxide...as noted.....is soft and gets scratched off. It will feel smoother going in. Its also known to be 1%-2% less conductive than straight metal.....not that I think thats significant at all. It was primarily designed for use in cast iron but should have few problems...except oncremoval and reinsertion. Its riskier.....because you are now with lots of bare steel in thr threads.....if the threads are nicely rolled.....it should be no issue except.....in the case where you install the plugs in hugh humidity. Remember....bare steel and aluminum is a galvanic corrosion issue  .
The American plugs are just as high a build quality as anyone elses......I have just found that the heat ranges dont seem to meet up exactly.....just my experience.
Ray |
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modok
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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My charts say bright zink plating has less friction than black oxide. And let me tell you it's TRUE  I keep learning that one the hard way too.
new guy demonstrated it earlier in the week stripping out main studs on a flathead ford of all things! |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| modok wrote: |
My charts say bright zink plating has less friction than black oxide. And let me tell you it's TRUE I keep learning that one the hard way.
Anyhow, I agree the steel on aluminum should oxidize themselves together BUT.... why don't the valve seats do that?? Valve seats are more or less bare steel also and the only rusted-under ones I've ever seen were from NOT being in service. Why I have no idea........but they don't....right? |
High heat....very high heat.....no moisture. That and the alloy most probably. Most that we use are a nickel alloy for the most part.
I used to think American plugs were inferior from way back in the day when I owned my one and only Chevrolet. The plugs were at an upward angle and were exposed. Water used to get on them in tue pocket and just rust them to the head (AC black oxide plugs).
Later I switched to champion nickle plated and had no issues. Used to swear that the champikns must be the best plug because I never had issues getting them out.
They were all the same. Just plating differences. Ray |
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Jake Raby
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Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Milk Of Magnesia is the best anti- seize that I've ever encountered..
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Anvil
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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I'd bet a lot of these issues are the same on VW heads as they are on V8's. For non-stock assemblies, I'd worry more about not having the threads on the spark plug protruding into the chamber where they can get loaded up with carbon and subsequently seize or waste your threads upon removal than which anti-sieze to use/not use.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Anvil wrote: |
| I'd bet a lot of these issues are the same on VW heads as they are on V8's. For non-stock assemblies, I'd worry more about not having the threads on the spark plug protruding into the chamber where they can get loaded up with carbon and subsequently seize or waste your threads upon removal than which anti-sieze to use/not use. |
Truly. ..that is the most common way to destroy threads in aluminum heads. A profrudjng yhtead with a ring or two of rock hard carbon will take out the threads in one pass. Ray |
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modok
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Milk Of Magnesia i |
Good point. I just had an idea.
New procedure: instead of lubing with one drop of oil from the dipstick.........FIRST scrape dipstick around on one of those white crusty spots of the engine case, THEN apply to plug.
Brilliant! |
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Jake Raby
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Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, plugs having exposed threads in the chamber that carbon foul, is the main reason for galled plug holes.. People not knowing how to remove the plugs is another leading cause. I always have the engine warm to the touch when breaking torque. Also, if I feel a plug starting to tighten as its being removed, I'll run it back in immediately and then change up my removal process till the tightness on extraction goes away.
Its all in the tactile feedback, knowing when to say no and run it back in...
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Jake Raby
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Kevinwterry
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Location: Bellingham wa
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1296229.jpg
Noticed that the spark plugs that were original posted had some black stuff on the first few threads. I found this pic on the Internet and though I might share. I don't know too much about vws, I've only rfreshened up an engine on my buggy, but I don't remember my spark plugs having that thread. I think mine were a lot shorter. But I'm sure that different head styles have different spark plug reaches. |
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Kevinwterry
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Jake Raby
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Spark plug holes that have worn threads will allow carbon to reach the threads as well, even if the threads do not protrude into the chamber.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
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"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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