LED Tail Light Bulbs

Terry Kay · Banned Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331

This is real old subject matter regarding LED usage for the tail lamps & pretty much winds up in the same round file-- garbage.
You CANNOT take a fluted lens with one bulb socket & a reflective backing intended for incandescent bulbs and think for one second it'll do the same job as a late model vehicle with an LED lamps on the back end of it from the factory.
It ain't gonna happen.
Just for the hell if it count the bulbs on some late model Caddy SUV stopped in front of you at a light.
He's got 32 LED's on each side for brake lights,20 on each side for running lights, plus clear non focused lens on each side with zero reflectors behind the bulbs doing the same job as 4 incadescents on each side.
Here's another waste of bandwidth post that has been covered here too many times to count.
Should have done some sniffing in the archives first Doug.
_________________
T.K.

tristessa · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:51 am Post subject:

IdahoDoug · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:55 am Post subject:

Jael,

Nice! I agree with that finding and the solution. I've been using Hella twin beam work lamps on the back of my expedition rigs for over 20 years. Have one in a box for the Van. But I am still trying to design a full perimeter up high lighting system that will fit under the drip rail and put out light like your light in all 4 directions without being obvious. Fronts in the grill, rears easy to install, but sides have confounded me so far. Small, super bright LEDs to create a full pool of light that is VERY bright far off for forest night camping.

WIll create a thread as it seems a lot of follks are messing with LEDs now..
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

rowan · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:09 am Post subject:

Terry - I agree somewhat but the state of the art with LEDs is changing and I read this thread to see if there were new developments of interest.
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Rowan

89 Syncro - Juniper Mackenzie

09 Honda Fit - Finnie
17 Ram ProMaster - John Hordle

Terry Kay · Banned Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331

Two items of interest to digest;

Until someone manufactures a red , yellow & clear tail light lens that will allow the LED light source along with a stacked multiple bulb holder to give you something to look at your just at best spinning your wheels in knee deep mud.

What came stock on the back end of a Vanagon is in no way shape or form going to give you the same light output using am LED bulb.
It's fluted,& was designed to function only with an incadesent bulb which radiates 360 degrees -- not at all a focused directional bulb which these guys are trying to do again, still.
_________________
T.K.

luVWagn · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:53 pm Post subject:

Do you also disagree with the LEDs for reverse lights (which currently illuminate nada in my case)...?
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'91 Syncro 16 Reimo Hightop Conversion, eTDI

Terry Kay · Banned Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331

Please read what I have mentioned more than once;
A LED bulb (s) are not intended to project out of a fluted lens properly, or as the the lens & reflector was intended to operate with a projector focused bulb.
The tail lamps on your van require a bulb that radiates 360 degrees to maximize the use of the refective rear surface of the lamp and the diffuser lens.
An LED bulb(s) don't, won't, cannot function properly in an incadesent fixture.

It's just the way it is.
_________________
T.K.

Terry Kay · Banned Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331

Please read what I have mentioned more than once;
A LED bulb (s) are not intended to project out of a fluted lens properly, or as the the lens & reflector was intended to operate with a projector focused bulb.
The tail lamps on your van require a bulb that radiates 360 degrees to maximize the use of the refective rear surface of the lamp and the diffuser lens.
An LED bulb(s) don't, won't, cannot function properly in an incadesent fixture.

It's just the way it is.
_________________
T.K.

nocreditnodebt · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:20 pm Post subject:

Phillips is coming out with LED signal bulbs which are said to use the projector and be certified in Only Some Vehicles.

Most each and every LED bulb placed in a housing designed around an incandescent filament light source is going to be inadequate no matter if it fires multiple LEDs radially as well as straight into crenellated lenses.

And while some simply go by brightness and say it is brighter, and all is well and I am safer, this is unwise.

I've seen a few LED retrofits into vanagons in my area and some are too bright and dazzzling and others are practically invisible at angles off to the sides

There needs not only to be enough running light, but enough difference between running light and brake light to indicate that one is indeed braking, and this is where many LEDs fail and fail miserably.

Insistence on retrofitting LEDs into halogen housings will not go away, and LEDs are only getting better, but you cant change physics, only accommodate them.

Lighting "upgrades" are often unsafe illegal downgrades that the buyer absolutely and steadfastly refuses to believe.

From the Candlepower forum regarding installing LEDS into halogen fixtures and if they are acceptable, here is how to evaluate and t goes way beyond 'brightness"

Terry Kay · Banned Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331

I don't know why your confusing halogen with incandesent tungsten bulb fixture
I'm going to notate this again;
If you don't have LED fixtures hung on the back end of your vehicle your spitting into the wind.
Wrong lamp technology into the wrong fixture.
_________________
T.K.

Syncro Jael · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:14 pm Post subject:

ThankYouJerry · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:47 pm Post subject:

vanaru · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:59 pm Post subject: pretty close to 360 projection

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/tail-brak...tower/526/

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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1962 sunroof beetle
1982 porsche 911 SC
1991 vanagon WRX powered

Syncro Jael

thatvwbusguy · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:49 pm Post subject:

The Philips LED bulbs do look promising and they have been purpose designed by a global lighting manufacturer to replace standard incandescent automotive bulbs.

The blanket statement that LEDs don't work in reflector based fluted/prismatic lens tail lights isn't really applicable these days considering the major advancements in lumens per watt and beam angle control that has taken place in the past 5 years. I will openly agree that most of the aftermarket LED stuff on the market has no place in the Vanagon tail lights, but until I actually see how this new generation of LEDs work, I am going to reserve judgement.

The new Philips LEDs are not currently listed for use in the Vanagon on the Philips application guide and I honestly doubt that they have much interest in testing them and giving them them their blessing for any vehicle over 20 years old, since the condition of any aging plastic automotive lens is going to be questionable at best.

When a global company like Philips gives the thumbs up to use their product in a specific application, they are opening the flood gates for litigation. The handful of sales they would gain from listing the LED 1157 bulbs as a suitable replacement for the 80-91 Vanagon simply isn't worth the time and effort it would take to test the efficacy of the product in our tail lights.

At $26.66 for a pair, it isn't much of a risk to give them a shot and see how they work: http://www.amazon.com/Philips-12839REDB2-Exterior-Vision-Bulb/dp/B00P2D41DW . When my van comes out of storage in the spring, I will test a set out if nobody beats me to it.
_________________
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'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

IdahoDoug · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:55 pm Post subject:

I'm gonna lean toward Terry on the LED in stop/tail/turn signals though the new Phillips design is a radical departure from current offerings. Here's a simple way to understand the shorcomings of the current LED offerings as it appears above in the side by side bulb pictures above.

Note the stock bulb on the left. Its filament is designed to be precisely in a spot defined in 3 dimensions inside the curved reflector of the tail light called the "focal point". The reflector then focuses the light to exit the lense to maximizes use of the light where it is needed. Naturally the tailight has a federal standard to be seen straight behind, and also to the sides a certain number of degrees.

Now look at the LED bulb up above. It has light sources emitting from various spots on the surface of what is essentially a barrel shape. Importantly, the focal point of the Vanagon tail light reflector assembly is still in the same spot - somewhere directly in the center of the barrel. Notice there is no LED emitting from the center. So the idea of this LED bulb assembly is that festooning a bunch of LED emitters all over it will through sheer numbers happen to bounce enough light out through the lense in about the right locations and angles to approximate the original bulb. Kind of a shot gun approach.

It may work. It may not. But I wanted to frame the challenge so you understand how incandescent lights work and how LEDs do not match up with how they work.

I personally have not considered using LEDs in the tail/brake/turn lights because of this problem. If I'm in foul weather making a left hand turn and on the brakes, I want to know the semi 300 feet behind me is directly in the strongest focal projected area of my rear lights. I know as others here do (Terry) that there is a chance that that trucker's eyes are temporarily in a dimmer section of the chopped up light output of an LED bulb's output pattern. And that can matter when split seconds matter. How likely is it? Hmmm, no idea and guessing would imply a level of knowledge I don't have.

I have a bunch of extra bright incandescent bulbs sitting on the passenger seat of the Vanagon ready to go in all the rear lights. And I have an LED third brake light sitting on the workbench ready to install.

This new Phillips LED bulb is interesting, and I agree with the assertion that they would not certify it for use in incandescent housings like the Vanagon has without having millions in research to prove it puts out light in the right places. I may also snag a pair of those to check out. These are the first LED bulb designs I have seen that work WITH the incandescent reflectors, and may well be the tipping point for me.

As Neil Young puts it "The times, they are a-changin'"

To me, the back up light is not a risky place to put an LED and I'm willing to check it out since others rave about them. Will see.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

syncrodoka · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:02 pm Post subject:

IdahoDoug · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:09 pm Post subject:

Yeah, I should have specified. These were recommended to me by Daniel Stern as being quality lamps with exacting filament placement, not a heat problem and a bunch more light output. They are special order items from Honda and not cheap. I'll report on them on a separate thread. I will do a picture with half the Van equipped and half the van on normal stock bulbs like others have done usefully.

You make an excellent point that there are a lot of junk bulbs out there from China, etc that put out too much heat.

DougM
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

syncrodoka · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:19 pm Post subject:

These? http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...honda+bulb

ThankYouJerry · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:32 pm Post subject:


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