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CV Joint Bolt Torque Specs?
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ztnoo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:42 am    Post subject: CV Joint Bolt Torque Specs? Reply with quote

I'm reassembling the left rear of the '74 I'm working on (see "Three Things In Hoosierland" thread).
I need to know the torque specs on those bolts. I've looked through all my literature, but can't locate a spec.
This is a high load/ high stress area and even the novice mechanic in me knows this is an extremely important detail.
Anyone have a torque spec on this part...12 point, 8 x 48 mm, "cheese head " bolt, part # 113 501 229?
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acidophilusrex
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

25 foot/lbs. Snug them up well first, but don't start really wrenching on them until they're ALL snug. You don't want to introduce any uneven stresses.
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ztnoo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:44 pm    Post subject: CV Joint Bolt Torque Specs? Reply with quote

Gentlemen,
I have two bids at 25 ft/lbs. and one at 30-33 ft/lbs.
Do I hear another bid? going, going ....gone.
I think I'm in the ball park at the higher end.
Gonna go with 30 ft/lbs..... unless otherwise directed.
Thanks guys.......
Regards
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ztnoo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:03 am    Post subject: CV Joint Bolt Torque Specs? Reply with quote

Thought I'd relate a bit of information I discovered about the CV bolts and the tools used to remove/replace them.
If you are aware of this, please excuse my inexperience and naivety.
It seems the major American automotive tool manufacturers (Snap-On, Matco, Cornwell, etc.) refer to these driver bit/sockets as "Triple Square" bit sockets.
Makes sense...do the math.
But if you are looking for a "12 point" bit socket for these specialty bolts to match an exist set of tools, or attempting to buy a single item through a local automotive parts supply store or shop/garage, you'll likely have more success using the terminology these manufacturers seem to prefer.
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ztnoo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:13 pm    Post subject: CV Joint Bolt Torque Specs? Reply with quote

Gentleman,
Since I seem to be having a conversation with myself with very few exceptions, I might as well continue.
Today after finishing the left rear cv/halfshaft redo on the '74 because of a broken cv bolt, I thought to myself...I wonder if the right side is ok.
Since the entire rear end was jacked up, it just made sense to check the torque spec on that side.
The third bolt I tried was broken, on the outer cv, just like the left side. It wasn't protruding from the cv like the left side was, therefore it was unnoticeable, until you put a "triple square" socket bit on it. Voila! Duh. Guess I should have suspected I might find the same situation.

Guys what I'm trying to say simplistically here is, if you haven't been under the posterior, rearward end of your Thing lately to look around and check things out, you might want to look at it in your shop/garage.....otherwise you'll eventually be looking at it on the road...or in the boondocks somewhere, immobilized. Somewhere where repair will be difficult at best, if not impossible.
I would say the longer one has set without use and attentive maintenance, the greater the likelihood of problems.
A word to the wise.....jack it up and crawl under it and check those cv joint bolts out, before they check you out.
I have two more Things to check out, and I'm betting I'll find the same problem on both of them.

Research notes on cv bolts:

From Bently: Official Service Manual-----S. Beetle, Beetle, & Karmann-Ghia, 1970-1979
Transmission and Rear Axle; p. 5; 3.1 Removing and Installing Driveshafts
"Caution---do not remove twelve-point driveshaft screws, if installed, with a hex-key as it may damage the screws. Use a twelve point driver."

From Haynes: VW Beetle & Karmann-Ghia-----1954-1970
Chapter 8 Clutch and driveline; page 8-14; #11 Driveaxles-removal and installation
"Caution---Earlier models use Allen bolts; later models use spline-drive bolts. Don't try to loosen Allen bolts with spline-drive bits, or vice-versa.
You'll strip out the recessed centers of the bolts making removal much more difficult.

No matter what you have done or have gotten away with in the past...you maybe be asking for trouble whether you are a new owner/mechanical dork, or an experienced wrench.

I'm going with the 12 point, "triple square" option.
I've got enough other things to attend to and get right without screwing up cv joints and bolts....something that's critically and vitally important.
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Captain Spalding
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: CV Joint Bolt Torque Specs? Reply with quote

ztnoo wrote:
Gentleman,
Since I seem to be having a conversation with myself with very few exceptions, I might as well continue . . .


Hi ztnoo,

I'll join the conversation. I've only just recently become a Thing owner myself, and have been lurking on this board for about six weeks or so. Don't be offended at the slowness of response. This is not what I would call a fast paced board. My other vehicle is a '91 Mercedes G-Wagen (a relative of the 181, certainly) and I am a member of a G-Wagen forum also. The rule of thumb on that forum is most of the action takes place during the week, and on the weekends it's a ghost town. Just the opposite here. Best chance of a quick response in this forum seems to be on a weekend. Perhaps that indicates that G owners have more of a tendency to steal time away from work at their desk jobs to log onto the G forum, while Thing owners are more dilligent about their employment. Wink (Lest I sound too disparaging of my fellow G owners, I admit that I have nothing better to do than obsess over my 181.)

That said, I'll also note that in less than 24 hours, 87 people have read your post.

Anyway, being a VW newbie (though no stranger to a wrench, certainly) it is a pleasure to read messages like yours, which chronicle the process of discovery. I feel like I'm starting from scratch with the 181 and air-cooled engines in general, and many of the characteristics and idiosyncrasies of air cooled engines which are common knowledge to long time VW guys are unknown to me. Hence, threads like this one are quite valuable. So, keep posting regardless of the silence. You are being heard.

— Spalding

P.S. Don't they look like siblings? Or at least cousins?

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bljones
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ztnoo, my apologies on not jumping into this thread sooner, leaving you feeling alone. This week, capt. spalding hit the nail on the head, at least in my case- for some silly reason, i have actually been working.
BTW, rob and dave of aussiebug fame recommend 25 ft/lbs torque for the cv bolts.

BTW cap, have you read "against gravity"? that book almost convinced me to buy a g-wagen.
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ztnoo
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:05 pm    Post subject: CV Joint Bolt Torque Specs? Reply with quote

bljones....Resident Wit
I love that title...very, very clever.
Thanks for chiming in on this growing discusiion.

In my case with the '74 I'm working on, a left outer cv bolt was sticking out, i.e. protruding form the cv flange.....about an inch.
I was changing oil at the time and spotted it.
This is good reason to look around for other problems while you are on your back, looking up, and seemingly focused on one chore.
I thought I could thread it back in because there is much more threading on the bolt than actually "bites" into the axle hub.
Wrong...no go.
While I haven't measured the depth of the threading on the axle hub which actually accepts the bolt....I know it does not exceed 3/8" in length, and I would speculate it is less than that dimension.
Not much meat to grab, so it better be socked in there to spec to hold.

The broken bolt on the right side was on the outer cv also.
But this one was still hugging the cv flange....grease, dirt, suction, whatever....kept it looking like it was snugged up against the cv flange.
The minute I placed my "triple square " bit in the head and turn it... oh so slightly....it broke free of its crud.
It was very deceptive.
If it's not protruding from the flange, you'll never know unless you jack it up, crawl under there, and put your torque wrench on it.
Ya gotta put your hands on it to know for sure.

Novice cv bolt tip:
Work the inner cv bolts from the top (12 o'clock).
Work the outer cv bolts from the bottom (6 o'clock).
Because of the angle of the cv/halfshaft when on floor stands, and the large diameter of the boot, these are the best access points.
I am an empiricist.....I learned by doing...observing...and by working alone on this problem I faced, and with some help from my online Thing friends.

Btw....I went with 30 lbs./ft. ....a Kubelmann suggestion.

ztnoo
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suntour
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am starting to see another family resemblance. To bad the Uni-Mog doesn’t seem to fit into this category.

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Personally I would go for the 33 foot pound spec. I have had those damn drive lines fall off on a few occasions. I didn’t break any bolts; they just worked themselves loose and slipped off. You would step on the gas and the engine would rev up but there was no forward motion just a slight grinding noise of the axle shaft rubbing on the frame horn. After I started cranking the bolts to 35 foot pounds I didn’t have the problem anymore.

I think it would be prudent (in my case) to drill the bolt heads and also run a safety wire to keep them where they belong.
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ztnoo
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:25 pm    Post subject: CV Joint Bolt Torque Specs? Reply with quote

suntour,
Hey that's not a bad idea at all ...the safety wire idea.
The owner of two of the Things I'm working on and I road raced Yamaha 250's back in the early '70's.
All the critical and important bolts and nuts of those rockets of the time, were safety wired.
The locking, spin pliers (the correct description escapes me, an aviation mechanical tool) were all that was required, and that tool was part and parcel of every two wheeled road racer's tool box...

If someone is having a continuing problem or absolutely wants to prevent these bolts from backing out....drill the suckers out and wire them.
The only thing you won't know without cutting the wire and torquing, is if they are broken.
They can be as deceiving looking safety wired, as they are unwired.
Broken is broken, whether it is wired or unwired.

Thanks for your torque spec input.

ztnoo
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Captain Spalding
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bljones wrote:
BTW cap, have you read "against gravity"? that book almost convinced me to buy a g-wagen.


Is that the one about the husband/wife Paris-Dakar team? I've heard of it, but haven't read it, and was unaware of any G relevance. I'll check it out.

The G-Wagen isn't a truck for everyone. The new MBUSA ones aren't for anyone. Too much complexity and not enough reliability in the mission-critical components. The older ones are great though, say from '84-'95 (avoid the OBD!) The older ones were all brought into the US as gray-market vehicles. Finding parts can be problematic, and paying for them even more so. On the bright side, properly maintained even an older G will need few parts. As for off road ability, even in it's stock form it's awesome. A comparison of the frame and running gear between the G and a Jeep make the Jeep seem like a toy. The only two trucks I consider to be in the same class are the Toyota FJ and Defender 90. Even then, you have to add locking diffs to both (the G has them from the factory.) And the D-90 will have to have had all the assembly defects worked out (my experience with D-90s is that the design is solid, but they are put together sloppily, which accounts for the reliability issues. Once those are sorted out, the D-90 is great.)

If you are the type who loves to pit his heavily modified machine against the rocks, because of the parts expense, the G might not be for you. Get a nice disposable Jeep instead. OTOH, if you are the type who likes to get from point A to a very remote point B and back again, then the G is awesome.

Trying to veer back onto topic: I fell in love with the 181 in part because of the G. The G is a very heavy vehicle, around 6k lbs. The gas mileage, even with the straight six, is pathetic. I felt the need for something more economical, but which maintained the all-business feel of the G. The 181 was the logical choice. [ * Rationalization mode fully engaged * ] I did a little research, found one with a nice clean body almost free of rust, and haven't looked back.

Here's a pic of my G, feeling very jealous of its new stable-mate, absent, because it is at the paint shop right now getting freshened up.

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Sorry, ztnoo et al, for hijacking the thread. I promise not to do it often. Embarassed
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