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kg0483
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Joined: September 10, 2013
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 Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Today I decided to check the timing again and not trust that my mechanic did it correctly. I talked to him on the phone and he said I could adjust the timing without a timing light if I just did it a little at a time. This was a red flag to me. Made me think he was just guessing at adjusting my timing.
So I attached my tachometer and timing light and fired up the bus. Idled fine at close to 800rmp but the timing seemed to be set a little ATDC. At first I tried the suggested timing on the forums by making a mark 2" clockwise from the U shaped notch on the pulley. The van idled great but was really sluggish off the line, not to mention it seemed to have the loss of power a lot sooner then before. So I pulled over and tried adjusting the timing to what seems to be 5 degrees BTDC. Van runs great!!! No loss of power and I got it to 85 on the high way.
The reason I say I think 5 degrees BTDC is because the notches on my pulley don't seem to match the Bently. The V notch seems to be TDC and the U notch which is clockwise from the V seems to be where the van likes to be timed. According to the book the U notch should be on the other side of the V making it 5 degrees ATDC. Am I right?
Anyway the van runs great and I'm happy!!!!  |
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t3 kopf
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Joined: October 22, 2012
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Location: over by 'der
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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On a 1.9l the v should be 5 degrees to the left of the U. But that doesn't mean that is the right spot to set timing considering wear and age. On mine, I have a 2.1 pulley installed on a 1.9 so the marks are backward but TDC is still at the U. I don't pay attention to it because I set my timing to about 35 degrees BTDC at full advance. Glad you solved your issue and thank you for posting the solution. That is a dying trend around here it seems.
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'90 Carat w/ '95 phase 1 EJ22 OBD2 conversion |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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You would want to make a temporary mark somewhere about 1 3/4 (28°) to 1 7/8" (30°) to the right of the "U" mark and then with the hoses removed and plugged, and the engine revved to 3500+ rpms set your timing to this mark.
You need to make sure that at least the vacuum advance side of the vacuum can is working and that the centrifugal advance mechanism is properly lubed. Forget using the "V" mark and the factory timing specs, they only work correctly when all the parts are factory new. |
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kg0483
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Joined: September 10, 2013
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
You would want to make a temporary mark somewhere about 1 3/4 (28°) to 1 7/8" (30°) to the right of the "U" mark and then with the hoses removed and plugged, and the engine revved to 3500+ rpms set your timing to this mark.
You need to make sure that at least the vacuum advance side of the vacuum can is working and that the centrifugal advance mechanism is properly lubed. Forget using the "V" mark and the factory timing specs, they only work correctly when all the parts are factory new. |
I tried this timing earlier today measuring 2" clockwise from the U mark on the pulley with the van around 3000 rpms but I left the vacuum lines still plugged in and the idle stabilizer unit untouched. The van had a better idle but lacked power off the line and still had the power loss issue after a while.
Should I try setting the timing again but with the higher 3500 rpms, vacuum lines unplugged, and idle stabilizer disconnected and it's wires plugged together? Also, what should the idle be set to before I unplug everything and change the timing? Thanks
Last edited by kg0483 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:38 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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kg0483
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Joined: September 10, 2013
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| NavyVW wrote: |
| On a 1.9l the v should be 5 degrees to the left of the U. But that doesn't mean that is the right spot to set timing considering wear and age. On mine, I have a 2.1 pulley installed on a 1.9 so the marks are backward but TDC is still at the U. I don't pay attention to it because I set my timing to about 35 degrees BTDC at full advance. Glad you solved your issue and thank you for posting the solution. That is a dying trend around here it seems. |
So you're saying if I have the van timed on the U mark on the pulley it's only at TDC not 5 degrees BTDC? |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| kg0483 wrote: |
I tried this timing earlier today measuring 2" clockwise from the U mark on the pulley with the van around 3000 rpms but I left the vacuum lines still plugged in and the idle stabilizer unit untouched. The van had a better idle but lacked power off the line and still had the power loss issue after a while.
Should I try setting the timing again but with the higher 3500 rpms, vacuum lines unplugged, and idle stabilizer disconnected and it's wires plugged together? Also, what should the idle be set to before I unplug everything and change the timing? Thanks |
You want full mechanical advance which happens somewhere around 3500rpms. Just keep increasing the engine rpm's until the timing mark quits appearing to move. The exact rpm isn't important, what you want is for the centrifugal advance to be all in, you don't need a tach at all, you just want to rev the heck out of the engine until the mark quits advancing. Yes you want the hoses off and plugged and the DIS bypassed. Your idle speed isn't important when using this method. |
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t3 kopf
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Joined: October 22, 2012
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Location: over by 'der
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| kg0483 wrote: |
| NavyVW wrote: |
| On a 1.9l the v should be 5 degrees to the left of the U. But that doesn't mean that is the right spot to set timing considering wear and age. On mine, I have a 2.1 pulley installed on a 1.9 so the marks are backward but TDC is still at the U. I don't pay attention to it because I set my timing to about 35 degrees BTDC at full advance. Glad you solved your issue and thank you for posting the solution. That is a dying trend around here it seems. |
So you're saying if I have the van timed on the U mark on the pulley it's only at TDC not 5 degrees BTDC? |
Yes, the U mark is TDC regardless of the WBX engine or pulley. They have a woodruff key in the crankshaft so they only go on one way. a 2.1 pulley can go on a 1.9 and vice versa and TDC will still be the U mark.
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kg0483
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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The problem returned!!!  I really don't know what do do at this point. |
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Howesight
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Howesight wrote: |
I suggest that you hang on to your ECU and your money.
The online detectives here now need a few more clues. Can you describe exactly what happens when the van gets up to heat and loses power?
For example, is there popping or backfiring in the intake?
Is the loss of power sudden and jerky or rather gradual?
Does the exhaust appear to be overly rich and blackish?
Will the van idle?
If it will idle, is the idle smooth or does it seem to have a miss on one cylinder?
Just to rule out particles in the fuel, can you drain some gas directly from the hose between the tank and the fuel pump and examine it in a clear glass?
Have you, by any chance, adjusted your valve lash recently? If not, fine. If you have, that may be a/the problem.
I note that you have cleaned your various grounds, but did you check them for resistance afterwards?
A couple more thoughts:
- fuel pumps can overheat, or lose pumping ability, but it is uncommon for them to do so repeatedly without failing.
- Can you keep tabs on your battery voltage while driving? If you are really getting an alternator charging problem that is intermittent, the drop in fuel pump output might (although I am skeptical) be enough to drop your fuel pressure low enough to cause the power loss.
We need more clues, although you have been very thorough in setting out what potential causes you have eliminated. |
Bump.
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kg0483
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| kg0483 wrote: |
I tried this timing earlier today measuring 2" clockwise from the U mark on the pulley with the van around 3000 rpms but I left the vacuum lines still plugged in and the idle stabilizer unit untouched. The van had a better idle but lacked power off the line and still had the power loss issue after a while.
Should I try setting the timing again but with the higher 3500 rpms, vacuum lines unplugged, and idle stabilizer disconnected and it's wires plugged together? Also, what should the idle be set to before I unplug everything and change the timing? Thanks |
You want full mechanical advance which happens somewhere around 3500rpms. Just keep increasing the engine rpm's until the timing mark quits appearing to move. The exact rpm isn't important, what you want is for the centrifugal advance to be all in, you don't need a tach at all, you just want to rev the heck out of the engine until the mark quits advancing. Yes you want the hoses off and plugged and the DIS bypassed. Your idle speed isn't important when using this method. |
So I went to reset the timing the way that you suggested and found something odd. Yesterday I had originally set the timing with the idle stabilizer disconnected and plugged together and set the timing at the U mark on the pulley while the van idled at around 800 rmps. What's strange is when I went to set the timing today the way you told me with the van revved to 3500 rpms to get total mechanical advance, the dizzy vacuum lines unplugged and capped, the idle stabilizer left alone, and making a new timing mark 1 3/4" to 1 7/8 the bus's new timing mark already lined
up without me changing anything. Did I do something wrong? This doesn't seem right. |
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kg0483
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:46 am Post subject: |
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The engine shudders and shakes when the power loss is happening but it happens gradually. At first I will be driving along at 65 and I notice that the van really only wants to go as fast as 60 (No shaking at this point). I'll try stepping on the gas and it's like some invisible force is sucking the life out of the car. It will struggle at 60 then drop to 55, then 45 and so on till I have to pull over and the van looses all power bogs down and stalls out (rocking and rolling from the engine at this point).
The exhaust does not appear to be overly rich or blackish.
The bus does have a decent idle. When I first fire it up and at stop lights it's fine, even after it stalls I can still fire it right back up and it idles.
I'll check the gas for gunk tomorrow.
I have not touched the valve lash.
I did not check all the ground resistances. I only checked from the idle switch and the full throttle enrichment switches. By the way the enrichment switch didn't have a reading of 5 volts like it was supposed to.
It was like 0.01 volts. That's what lead me to check it's resistance which it passed (0 ohms). Bad wiring? It can't be the ECU cause I swapped in 3 different units. The idle switch was fine with 5 volts.
I have a spare used fuel pump I could put in tomorrow when I check the gas.
I did check my battery after a drive to see if it was getting a full charge thinking the alternator isn't doing it's job but it tested at 12 volts.
The alternator is still the original. I have no way of testing it while driving.
Thank you for your help. |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| kg0483 wrote: |
I did check my battery after a drive to see if it was getting a full charge thinking the alternator isn't doing it's job but it tested at 12 volts.
The alternator is still the original. I have no way of testing it while driving.
Thank you for your help. |
With the engine running you want to be seeing somewhere around 14 volts. |
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t3 kopf
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:55 am Post subject: |
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perhaps a worn alternator plus a worn alternator harness is causing you all kinds of electrical issues? The fuel injection recieves power from a post in the junction box which is in turn routed to the post of the back of the alternator through the alternator harness. I can see that causing some running issues if it is worn enough. If it really is the original alternator as you say, then that is a definite possiblilty.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| kg0483 wrote: |
So I went to reset the timing the way that you suggested and found something odd. Yesterday I had originally set the timing with the idle stabilizer disconnected and plugged together and set the timing at the U mark on the pulley while the van idled at around 800 rmps. What's strange is when I went to set the timing today the way you told me with the van revved to 3500 rpms to get total mechanical advance, the dizzy vacuum lines unplugged and capped, the idle stabilizer left alone, and making a new timing mark 1 3/4" to 1 7/8 the bus's new timing mark already lined
up without me changing anything. Did I do something wrong? This doesn't seem right. |
The timing a full mechanical advance actually shouldn't change when you bypass the DIS. It should changed markedly when you remove the vacuum hoses though. |
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vw4life
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:35 am Post subject: |
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It sounds more fuel related to me. I had a boat that gave me hell one summer randomly stalling. All new ignition, fuel pump, carb rebuild. Intermittently kept stalling.
It was debris in the fuel hose.
Is the van stalling at any particular load, incline or temp? I would be inclined to get a fuel pressure gauge and see if you have a fuel pressure issue once warm |
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tjet
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| kg0483 wrote: |
I did check my battery after a drive to see if it was getting a full charge thinking the alternator isn't doing it's job but it tested at 12 volts.
The alternator is still the original. I have no way of testing it while driving.
Thank you for your help. |
With the engine running you want to be seeing somewhere around 14 volts. |
This makes sense to me |
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kg0483
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Well I drove the van for over 40 miles today without issue. I haven't done anything special recently to make it drive better. I just changed out all the old fuses, cleaned the connections on the starter, and checked the fuel leading to the fuel pump (flows free and crystal clear). Hope that's enough to appease the Vanagon Gods for a while. |
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kg0483
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| NavyVW wrote: |
| perhaps a worn alternator plus a worn alternator harness is causing you all kinds of electrical issues? The fuel injection recieves power from a post in the junction box which is in turn routed to the post of the back of the alternator through the alternator harness. I can see that causing some running issues if it is worn enough. If it really is the original alternator as you say, then that is a definite possiblilty. |
The alternator, starter, and the wires leading from both look a little weathered. I cleaned them up today the best I could but they are now on my list to replace as soon as I can save up some cash. |
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Waldemar Sikorski
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Did you check and clean all the grounds? |
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t3 kopf
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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thatvwbusguy, t3 technique and gowesty all sell upgraded alternator harnesses on the cheap. I use thatvwbusguys. Its well made.
https://sites.google.com/site/vanagonheadlightrelays/alternator-harness
Wear eye protection when changing it. It'll rain crud on you and there isn't really any way to avoid it.
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