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67 Dual Circuit Master Cylinder Comparison with pictures
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Pacmanfever
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:13 pm    Post subject: 67 Dual Circuit Master Cylinder Comparison with pictures Reply with quote

We needed a new master cylinder for the final piece of our brake system replacement and after doing some research here on the Samba, it appeared that some disliked the "cheap Chinese" version that sells for around $80 bucks in favor of the German version that's close to $300. Others posted that they'd used the cheap version with good results. There weren't any good comparison pictures, so I snapped a few.

Since our bus is a daily driver, I figured I'd use the $80 version from So Cal Imports and report back occasionally on how it performed. First however, here's a short write up with close up shots comparing it to the original German master cylinder side by side.

First off, I'm in no way associated with AC Industries or So Cal Imports, I'm just a bus enthusiast trying to share a little helpful info. I have worked in the foundry industry as well as having been a machine shop foreman so I feel comfortable reviewing this casting and it's overall finish. Having purchased other cheap Chinese castings, I'm used to seeing core shifts, porosity, and poor flask alignment. This casting however is excellent and something that would have passed QC at our foundry. The parting line shows good registration, zero porosity, and it's evident their sand and binder control is good. Even the mold cavity identifiers are sharp and well formed, no issues whatsoever with the casting.

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It shipped boxed and sealed in a plastic bag with each port plugged and arrived 3 days after ordering. The order was online, $80.95 with free shipping and a $5 handling fee. There was an order confirmation email and a second email with tracking info.

Side by side the quality of the $80 part vs the original German version, none of the typical issues are present. Things often seen like machined surfaces that exhibit shrinkage or cast bosses with distortion resulting in the individual geometry or structure being poor. Drilled or tapped holes that appear off-center within the casting but may be correctly located within the overall geometry. This part had none of these issues.

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Finally, here is the original 67 reservoir mounted on the new master cylinder. The seals appear to be good quality as is the brake rod bellows, overall I'm very pleased with this part, especially as this price.

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I did bench bleed this cylinder prior to attaching the lines to flush out any preservative lubricant that may have been present. It fit perfectly and worked perfectly as we bleed each wheel circuit. Since it's a dual circuit, we started at the front and it built a strong pedal quickly. This bus had sat for 17 years in a garage before we put it back on the road, so I've replaced all the soft lines and wheel cylinders, brake pads, etc. It stops very well now, straight ahead with no side pull. I'll update this thread from time to time and report back on the longevity of this part. So far I'm very happy with it, hopefully this info helps others considering which cylinder to buy.
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srfndoc
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been using the same MC for about 6 months now with nothing bad to report. Stops great (using it with discs on the front, drum rears) with no leaks.
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OB Bus
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much for a first class and first hand review. I also will need a replacement MC for our '67 (soon!) and it is good to know that this part from China works well.
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pyrOman
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I've always said: they have been copying just about everything in china and as "practice makes perfect", they've been at it for a very long time! Neutral

There's always some cheap crap that is, well, cheap crap, but they have improved on a lot of stuff. Confused
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mg6770
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great write up and with you being from the foundry industry, I can really appreciate the knowledge behind your claims versus the regular write up stating "this part sucks, it's from China" with no concrete evidence.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience, some of the Brazilian or Chinese master cylinders last longer than the German ones because they don't sit on the shelf that long and have the seals dry up. I put a German one in my Bug years back and it crapped out quickly. The Brazilian one has been working great.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Figuring I could replace it 4 X for the price of 1 German (not that I'd want to), I opted for the China version and had/have no issued yet. I did spend a few more $ for the German reservoir; not sure it matters there.

Thanks for the input.

I've seen a number "rubber" content components listed as NOS in the classifieds that I wouldn't spend the $ on for the same reason mentioned unless I was prepared to rebuild with newer kits before installing.
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Nubby
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought one for my 67 as well. Zero issues!
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buseric
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I installed a chinese 67 only in my 58 last week with a used og german ATE reservoir. I am now experiencing leaks at the seals to reservoir, both of them. When I installed the reservoir it went in the seals a little too easily. It was much tougher to remove it from the german seals on the og master.

Has anyone else experienced these leaks? I am thinking of the pulling the reservoir seals out of the german master and see if they work better.

Otherwise the install was easy and I thought the quality was decent for the price. No problems bleeding and performs well outside of the leak at the reservoir.
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Pinetops
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So do you have to bench bleed these? If so how do you do it? Also, is it a good idea to use the original reservoir? My original washer bottle reservoir crumbled to pieces from next to no pressure. Maybe its a different plastic but it makes you wonder. I'm still using my original master cylinder and reservoir by the way, it works great but I'm definitely going to replace/rebuild it at some point in the near future.
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buseric
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuco wrote:
So do you have to bench bleed these? If so how do you do it?


You don't have to but its always a good idea with master cylinders. It makes the bleeding in the vehicle easier and flushing any contaminants or packing fluid out. Even just pumping some through before hooking the lines up is helpful, albeit messy.
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuco wrote:
So do you have to bench bleed these? If so how do you do it? Also, is it a good idea to use the original reservoir? .


http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=547638&highlight=bench+bleed

As for the original reservoir, as always it depends on the condition of any used part.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuco wrote:
So do you have to bench bleed these? If so how do you do it? Also, is it a good idea to use the original reservoir? My original washer bottle reservoir crumbled to pieces from next to no pressure. Maybe its a different plastic but it makes you wonder. I'm still using my original master cylinder and reservoir by the way, it works great but I'm definitely going to replace/rebuild it at some point in the near future.


My bench bleeding process was simple- I used a Phillips screwdriver as a push-rod to activate the piston in the master cylinder. Then filled the fluid reservoir, put the cap on and holding the assembly over a drain pan, I depressed the piston to expel fluid and flush the cylinder. You'll find it only exits the rear port until you block that one with a fingertip which will then expel fluid from the front port.

Take care because it will be under pressure and you don't want it in your eyes or anywhere else it shouldn't be.

As for the reservoir plastic, it was sturdy and flexible and required some fairly substantial force to remove it from the old German master cylinder. Since it didn't crack, I had no concerns about it falling apart after surviving the wrestling match to remove it. Prior to re-installation on the new $80 master cylinder, I lubricated both reservoir seals with DOT 3/4 brake fluid to ease installation and prevent snagging or gashing of those retainer disc.
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pyrOman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Dual Circuit Master Cylinder Comparison with pictures Reply with quote

Pacmanfever wrote:
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Quote:
67 Dual Circuit Master Cylinder Comparison with pictures


Think

From the other thread, here's pictures of what I was told was a 67 master cylinder!?! Confused

pyrOman wrote:
Alright, "short story LOOONNNGGG!!!" Anxious


After doing this job for Turbo_g and experiencing the effortless of braking with the Hatch, I was wondering if the Dormy could be made to do that also. Though I can make the Dormy stop almost on a dime, I really have to lay HEAVY on the pedal for that to happen. So, after the Hatch got a new master cylinder I asked Turbo_g to let me have the old leaky one to try it out on the Dormy. The "jerk" would not let me have it.... so he ordered a brand spanking new german one at veeparts and had me pick it up! Embarassed


Now, like an idiot Rolling Eyes , I decided to do the swap this past weekend JUST BEFORE the Havafew trip!!!! d'oh!

Worked the weekend so I only had but a few hours to do this both Saturday and Sunday. However, as soon as I started the project a grave issue came up! Who says "size doesn't matter?" Well, it does! The beautyful new german master cylinder is simply too long and would be in the way of the Dormy's massIVe sway bar! Sad

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All is not lost though. Having started the project I figured something must be done now. I had bought a new $20 master cylinder a while back at one of the many shows so decided to use it instead. I believe it is a Bug master since it came with 2 "hose ports" for the fluid supply instead of a reservior. Had also bought (or found, can't quite remember now) a Volvo reservior that fit nearly perfect on top of the Bug master. That is the one you see pictured here. Had to re-route the brake lines since the old master had them coming into the other side, but managed to get them on. Bled the air out of the lines and took it for a spin. Though it was raining so the road was way wet, managed to lock up the front tires a lot but definitely with a lot LESS effort as before!!! Dancing

Had read in some "brake" threads in thedrambadotcom's forums about the "volume" issue between the masters and pressure needed to brake. The "late bus" master is a lot wider (more volume) than the Bug one but it does use a vacuum booster which I was not using. Had been considering getting a rebuilt one but it required some fabrication to install it properly. So, now I finally have some relief for my leg when braking! Cool


The residual result of all this is that now I have a brand spanking new german '67 dual circuit master cylinder which I will not be able to use. So, is up for grabs at just below cost to any club member needing/wanting one, or I can try to return it at veeparts for at least credit towards future purchases. Confused


So which is the "correct" 67 master or could they have been 2 different ones? Eh?
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Pacmanfever
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PyrOman wrote: So which is the "correct" 67 master or could they have been 2 different ones? Eh?

I suspect the version you pictured with the extra ports isn't exactly right for the application. I don't see the restrictors for drum brakes, it appears the hard lines are connected directly.

Also the two blocked ports using sections of hard line bent over aren't correct, they're dangerous as that system is designed to work up to 1200 psi.

Whoever has that installed with those curled lines needs to swap out the correct master, or at the very least use proper fitting plugs in those unneeded ports.
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OB Bus
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pyrO's master cylinder might have been for a 68-70? I'd have to crawl under both buses to compare.
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pyrOman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the master I was told to be a '67 one. It has dual ports for the front brakes and is 8" long.

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The one pacmanfever pictured is obviously different, which is why I question if there were 2 "67" masters or maybe one of us got the wrong info!?! Confused

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The one "installed" is running disc brakes upfront and has a residual check valve on the line going to the back brakes. Neutral

OB Bus wrote:
pyrO's master cylinder might have been for a 68-70?


It is a bug master. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pyro, that's not a 67 bus master cylinder. The only ones I've seen as a 67 bus 'specialist' is the type pictured at the beginning of this thread. The brake lines all enter at the same planar angle which is parallel to the road. And the cylinder bore is 22.
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pyrOman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Transporter wrote:
Pyro, that's not a 67 bus master cylinder. The only ones I've seen as a 67 bus 'specialist' is the type pictured at the beginning of this thread. The brake lines all enter at the same planar angle which is parallel to the road. And the cylinder bore is 22.


I now wonder how would have it worked?!? As a "gift" I was just about to install it when I realized it was too damn long to fit! Confused


That's why you see the hacked in bug master with the cheesy caps on it now. Yes, I still have to "fix" that but it is definitely braking a lot easyer with it than with the phatchick booster type master it had before! Razz
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gad, Ivan, that things got enough ports; maybe it's a hookah.
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