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lenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2002 Posts: 375 Location: all the bling bling in san fran,and then some
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:40 am Post subject: Where and how to mount an external oil cooler on a Bus |
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thinking of adding a mesa cooler w/ fan and 180 degree in line thermostat. my question is where is the best location to mount this. anybody? _________________ 61 slammed double'cab "doveblue" (rip) 64 single cab (L380)turq " norcal lorider" 66 lotus white beetle"cal-looker" 2007 w/48ida's ovp norcal |
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Rex Surewood Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2004 Posts: 274 Location: Denmark - yes, around the planet..
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Somewhere between the crossmembers under the bottom.. Plenty of fresh air there. |
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Bart Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2002 Posts: 2516 Location: Chapel Hill, TN
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Wherever you mount it, make sure your plumbing is in good shape and of high quality. Something that can take high heat and high pressure. _________________ http://www.sundial-camper.com |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24670 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:29 am Post subject: Re: where and how to mount an external oil cooler on a bus |
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Hi lenwood,
Best in our opinion to avoid an external cooler. The lines themselfs are just another part to go bad and blow an engine. Plus while the external cooler might keep cool the oil, while the heads will overheat and drop valve seats.
We take doghouse shrouds and widen them to install a type 4 cooler for 40% more interior/exterior cooling surface. A "D" stock lower pulley, a 356 Porsche generator pulley up the fan RPMs for not only more cooling air through the oil cooler, but through the heads. Also clean out ALL the casting flash from the heads and install a 35 mm wide cooling fan (inside measurement). We keep the engine RPMs down with a freeway flier tranny. If anyone wants we will happily send them our "Modified Tranny History" about how we went to a FF tranny.
Eric&Barb |
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Lind Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000 Posts: 9905 Location: idaho
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:42 am Post subject: |
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where to mount: on your baja _________________ .
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Bryan67 Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2003 Posts: 2933 Location: Fresno, Ca.
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:20 am Post subject: |
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Don`t listen to them. Mount it undre your bus. Run hard lines with AN fittings back to the motor. Than run braided line to the motor. A GOOD
quality cooler and fan will reduce your oil temp greatly. However, if you are running a stock motor then there is no need for it. |
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WideFive SBS Hit Squad
Joined: August 20, 2002 Posts: 1147 Location: Litchfield, Ohio
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Here's where I put all mine...
Best to use hard lines where possible and AN fittings on anything you want to remove easily, like at the case, filter, etc... _________________ Aaron D. Badertscher
Click here for ALL my links. |
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EvilBus Samba Art Critic
Joined: June 18, 2004 Posts: 1523 Location: Texas Damnit!
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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WideFive wrote: |
Here's where I put all mine...
Best to use hard lines where possible and AN fittings on anything you want to remove easily, like at the case, filter, etc... |
Good place, I've also mounted the Mesa style w/o fan in front of the torsion tube, custom box using steel braided teflon lines. Works great.
I'm also an advocate of the Type IV doghouse conversion as well. _________________ - JHC de Tejas - |
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krusher Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2002 Posts: 7652 Location: europe
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Ah the old cooler debate, I side with eric and barb, if your engine is running hot then fixing it with and oil cooler is not going to fix the ACTUAL problem.
You have not told us what engine you running in what bus either. |
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EvilBus Samba Art Critic
Joined: June 18, 2004 Posts: 1523 Location: Texas Damnit!
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:40 am Post subject: |
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krusher wrote: |
Ah the old cooler debate, I side with eric and barb, if your engine is running hot then fixing it with and oil cooler is not going to fix the ACTUAL problem.
You have not told us what engine you running in what bus either. |
I don't recall him asking if it was a good thing to do.. A thermostatically controlled system is excellent but don't forget a filter. I know, yeah VW made it, it's gold, leave it alone bla bla. Yes an overheating engine is a bad thing, all tin must be in place, agreed. Considering Berlin is at a higher latitude than Winnipeg, a filter and a cooler are not a bad thing if done properly especially if you're in a daily driver in Dallas, in the Summer. _________________ - JHC de Tejas - |
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Lind Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000 Posts: 9905 Location: idaho
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:07 am Post subject: |
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can you route your oil lines through the heads to help cool the heads? _________________ .
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lenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2002 Posts: 375 Location: all the bling bling in san fran,and then some
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:13 am Post subject: |
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good question lind. i know that cant be done, i'm running a 1776 w/dual kad's,mild cam,type3 trans. at 70 mph she runs 220-230 temp. i know buses arent meant to go that fast. around town and traffic,200-210. i just want some insurance when on long drives. slow down huh? _________________ 61 slammed double'cab "doveblue" (rip) 64 single cab (L380)turq " norcal lorider" 66 lotus white beetle"cal-looker" 2007 w/48ida's ovp norcal |
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Lind Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000 Posts: 9905 Location: idaho
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:31 am Post subject: |
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lenwood wrote: |
good question lind. i know that cant be done, i'm running a 1776 w/dual kad's,mild cam,type3 trans. at 70 mph she runs 220-230 temp. i know buses arent meant to go that fast. around town and traffic,200-210. i just want some insurance when on long drives. slow down huh? |
the heat is coming from several different directions. the horsepower that you need to go over 55mph rises sharply, so when you are going over 55mph, you need a lot of hp in a hurry. the air flow patterns make it harder to get air into your engine compartment the faster you go. then, the engine vents are only designed to flow so much air, so when you put a firebreathing engine with a doghouse fan into the bus, it may not be able to flow all the air that it needs at high RPMs. and of course performance engines run hotter generally.
so do you want to put a lot of effort and money into modifying the engine and body to make it run cooler, or do you want to drive slower, or just deal with the 230 degree temps. _________________ .
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Idaho VW license plate frames or other dealership items.
VWoA literature and early dealership or distributor literature/pictures/information
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EvilBus Samba Art Critic
Joined: June 18, 2004 Posts: 1523 Location: Texas Damnit!
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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lenwood wrote: |
good question lind. i know that cant be done, i'm running a 1776 w/dual kad's,mild cam,type3 trans. at 70 mph she runs 220-230 temp. i know buses arent meant to go that fast. around town and traffic,200-210. i just want some insurance when on long drives. slow down huh? |
One of the biggest contributors to high temps is high compression ratio, balancing the performance/power vs lower operating temps. DO you know what your compression ratio is? Also do you have all of the OG tin, including the shutters installed? Also is this a doghouse configuration or inline oil cooler? _________________ - JHC de Tejas - |
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Clara Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2003 Posts: 12382
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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theeffort needed goes up in proportion to the square of the speed
Where do you get the stuff about air flow, Lind? please share
If you add ugly scoops over your vents (you can make them detachable, drill no holes) you will drop Head temps significantly, which is more important than oil temps, actually., and oil temp drop would follow from head temp drop.
the air scoops drop temps by blasting air through the engine compartment and dropping the temp of air in the engine compartment, which tends to be warmer than ambient outside temps. then the actual cooling air is then cooler than w/o scoops.
also, I got good oil temp drops from cleaning the casting flashing a la Eric& Barb, and switching to a typeIV doghouse. I don't have a head temp sensor on that, so don't know, but the oil temps dropped ~5 to 10* Celcius on the freeway. I did this about 5-6 years ago to the engine that is now in my 61, which has had a good # of miles/road trips on since.
what are your rpms at 70mph?
Lind wrote: |
lenwood wrote: |
good question lind. i know that cant be done, i'm running a 1776 w/dual kad's,mild cam,type3 trans. at 70 mph she runs 220-230 temp. i know buses arent meant to go that fast. around town and traffic,200-210. i just want some insurance when on long drives. slow down huh? |
the heat is coming from several different directions. the horsepower that you need to go over 55mph rises sharply, so when you are going over 55mph, you need a lot of hp in a hurry. the air flow patterns make it harder to get air into your engine compartment the faster you go. then, the engine vents are only designed to flow so much air, so when you put a firebreathing engine with a doghouse fan into the bus, it may not be able to flow all the air that it needs at high RPMs. and of course performance engines run hotter generally.
so do you want to put a lot of effort and money into modifying the engine and body to make it run cooler, or do you want to drive slower, or just deal with the 230 degree temps. |
_________________ The Obsolete Air-Cooled Documentation Project http://oacdp.org/ |
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lenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2002 Posts: 375 Location: all the bling bling in san fran,and then some
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:52 am Post subject: |
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well,the motor i have is low comp 8.5:1 brand new everything.doghouse cooler,new tin,heater boxes etc. rpms not sure.no tach.cooling scoops? good idea? for summer maybe? i run good oil,20/50w gtx. type 4 cooler? future mod maybe?claras idea might be a quick fix for summer just to be safe. bigger fan smaller generator pulley? spin the fan faster? thanks everybody for chiming in. inc you lindo..... _________________ 61 slammed double'cab "doveblue" (rip) 64 single cab (L380)turq " norcal lorider" 66 lotus white beetle"cal-looker" 2007 w/48ida's ovp norcal |
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P-Dub Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2002 Posts: 1064 Location: Oh, hi!
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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I have heard of instances where changing the fan speed can cause a vaccum effect, the fan is moving faster but less air flow. Has anyone else ever heard of this?
Reading this thread makes me appricate driving 65 mph with my 1500sp. |
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EvilBus Samba Art Critic
Joined: June 18, 2004 Posts: 1523 Location: Texas Damnit!
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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lenwood wrote: |
well,the motor i have is low comp 8.5:1 brand new everything.doghouse cooler,new tin,heater boxes etc. rpms not sure.no tach.cooling scoops? good idea? for summer maybe? i run good oil,20/50w gtx. type 4 cooler? future mod maybe?claras idea might be a quick fix for summer just to be safe. bigger fan smaller generator pulley? spin the fan faster? thanks everybody for chiming in. inc you lindo..... |
One of the tricks I've heard of, seen, but never tried is using the 356 style pulley on the generator. The Type IV cooler requires some tin work and Gene Berg sells the kit. Larger Hoover bit etc. _________________ - JHC de Tejas - |
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VWBobby Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2004 Posts: 1537 Location: Central Oregon Coast
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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I wanted to stay out of this one because I could see it turning into a pissing match...
Lenwood,
Your engine is fine. Just make sure there are no gaps in the tin and the thermostat is hooked up. The flaps direct air to the heads and cylinders depending on what posistion they are in, so they are very important to have intact and functional.
You might also try switching to 10W30 or 15W40 oil. 20W50 tends to hold heat longer than 10W30 because it is so thick. It doesn't flow as well so it makes it harder to absorb oil from hot engine parts (doesn't soak in as well). I use Valvoline 10W30 because it is very clean oil and cheap. If the engine is extremely worn, I might use 20W50 in a pinch only during summer....just because it fills in the gaps on worn bearings better.
The ideas Clara is talking about are spot on. The air scoops will probably make the biggest difference overall and they are easy to fit. IF you STILL need an external oil cooler during really hot summer, then you could do what you're talking about....but save your money for now. Scoops are cheap, and I have a set I'm selling soon.
Oil temps are caused by long hauls at high RPM or just constant loading for a long time.
Head temps are caused by sudden load changes (such as going up a short steep hill) or lugging the engine. A long steep hill is amost certain death to a VW engine if you hold it in 4th gear. The PNW is notorious for killing VW's over the mountain passes.
The 356 generator pulley is a common mod. It increases the fan speed by I think 6%. |
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roadron Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2004 Posts: 215 Location: taos new mexico
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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i have played with the idea of ducting extra air through the front tin. has anyone tried this? _________________ 73 WESTY SO72-6 with continental bed |
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