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69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yarkle wrote:
NICE!!!

Whered you find those? cuz I could use the brake harness, since I now know I have to redo mine and it just plugs into the horn connector


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bummer! too bad we didnt have those pictures a year ago, OTOH, I learned ALOT about wiring from this experience. All the research I did and help i received on this thread has given me the confidence to tackle other projects on the bus I was dreading.
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 6:27 pm    Post subject: Wiring Harness Hardware Reply with quote

There are many clear plastic terminal protectors in the wire harness. They may protect a two to one or other configurations. Does anyone have a source for these items. They will become yellow and brittle in the engine bay over time. I try to save them one the wreck I salvage, but new ones would be much better.
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Items J and K on this page: http://www.bughaus.com/beetle_wiring_looms.htm
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everyone. Just wanna thank you all for your great work and detail. You have already saved me so much time with my 69 re wire.
So far So good and I'm following all the info on this thread and the various diagrams.
Hopefully I won't need anymore help than you have all already given.
I'll post some pics of my setup and bin number to maybe help others. Mine is a UK bus rhd so we will see.

Cheers Luke.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

I've been struggling with the wiring on my camper for a while now, every diagram I've come across is slightly different to my bus!!! But this thread seems to have helped me out a fair bit, I'll try it out tomorrow and let you know.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

good luck! one of the main problems i had when i first started this thread was that some wires start out one color, then go to a connector under the dash (or wherever) and then the same wire trace becomes another color on the other side of the connector.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject: Oil cooler removal Reply with quote

Can the oil cooler/seals be removed and or replaced without dropping the engine? I'm getting a lot of mixed information and I would really appreciate some clarity.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil cooler removal Reply with quote

fatkidking wrote:
Can the oil cooler/seals be removed and or replaced without dropping the engine? I'm getting a lot of mixed information and I would really appreciate some clarity.


Hi first time poster.
You posted in an electrical thread. I started a new thread for you.
click on link
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8472555#8472555

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lastchancevw
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

Yay! I'm so happy I found this thread!

I recently bought a project 69 and the wiring had been royally hacked. I needed to replace the dashboard anyway and while putting the new one in (which means disconnecting all that stuff that goes to the blinker/dimmer stalk), I ripped out the absolute hideous workaround the PO did, and figured I'd just wire it back to 69 stock when putting it all back together.

Well, the wiring diagram in Bentley told me I was supposed to have a 4 pin hazard switch and 9 pin relay- instead what I had was a 7 (yes, a 7!!!) pin hazard switch, and the relay???? well instead of a 4 pin relay or a 9 pin relay they kind of hacked something with a 3 pin buzzer (?) and a 5 pin generic ignition relay sort of thing that came from Autozone or something. The hazards and blinkers did work, but i never figured out if the brake lights worked right, in any way, I didn't write down what they had done so i couldn't recreate their mess even if it did work.

oh, and my 69 has the 10 fuse fusebox.

Anyway, I looked through all my parts and dont have an original 9 pin blinker relay, but plenty of the 4 pin ones. And I don't have any 4 pin 68 style hazard switches, but lots of 7 and 9 pin hazard switches, many off godknows what (beetles, type 3s whatever)

And this is why I'm really glad I found this thread. So.. The 7 pin hazard switch has a part number 111 953 235 F And apparently this doesn't have 54 and 54f terminals on it, which i guess means I shouldn't use it, and thats probably why the PO had to come up with some sort of crazy ass workaround

through this thread I've going to guess that a 7 pin hazard switch was probably off a later VW that had brake lights that didn't use the same bulbs as the blinkers in the back.

I can totally understand why VW went to the big taillights on the bus in 72 that has blinkers and brake lights that work independently from each other, because I'm guessing that when you have the blinkers and brake lights on at the same time, does one blink or do the brake lights stay on? what if your hazards are on, your blinker is on, and your foot is on the brake? Ugh. what a mess. just easier to redesign the taillight and have blinkers and brake lights that don't use the same bulb! I always thought it was weird that the early bays had the same taillights basically as the split busses and the same rear hatch, it's like "hey, we need to save some money, lets just reuse the rear end stamping more or less"

Anyway, reading this thread helped me figure out how to put this right. i have plenty of 9 pin hazard switches that I can use instead of the 7 pin and a much better understanding of how the whole system works now. At the same time I get in there and track down a few other things that don't work. The PO also rewired the high beams so they went straight from the dimmer relay to the lights, completely bypassing the fuses which great.. yeah.. if you want melted wires. Ugh. Joy.

I haven't looked at my brake light switches on the master cylinder yet but I think in general I just need to wire my hazard circuit like a 70, but hook it up to the same terminals on the fuse box as if it was a 68/69 with the 10 fuse fuse box..

Thanks Yarkie, Busdaddy and TCash

-Tara
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

Hey Tara, sorry you got the short end of the stick from your PO… My '69 came with something like six fuses completely bypassed, so I feel your pain…

Do you know if your bus was delivered with the North America "all red, single bulb" tail lights, or Euro style "red/yellow, double bulb" tail lights? I can't find the Euro wiring diagram at the moment, does anybody have it? I recall there being some differences under the dash on those as well…… (A picture of the wires running to your tail lights would clear things up too.)

I don't see how a hazard switch could work without the 54 terminals…

Some VW switches I see have a clear packing tape wrapped over the opening for the dimmer rheostat, and I like to mimic that to keep dust out of the works.

Good luck!
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lastchancevw
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure my 69 bus is just standard North American spec.

I think its only the early bays that would need a 9 terminal hazard light switch, because it can't just flash all 4 blinkers at the same time, it has to figure out if the driver is using the brake lights at the same time as the rear blinkers and I'm not quite sure which one it favors.

I'm not sure which VW model these 7 terminal switches came off of, I'm guessing maybe a Type3 or a later standard beetle with the elephant foot taillight, where the blinker is it's own thing and doesn't use the same bulb as the brake lights. Which means a simpler hazard switch. in fact, a few of the 7 terminal switches I dig up seemed to have marks on the black plastic where the 54 terminals would have come out, but the internals and terminals weren't there. I'm guessing that at some point they replaced the switch and that's all they could find, and then had to do a ridiculous workaround using two other non-vw relays and well..

I'm going to put it all back together tomorrow based on what I read on this thread today, hopefully everything will work. After this though I really hope I never have to do a dashboard swap, but the old one was just horribly cracked everywhere. Good thing I had 2 much better 69 dashes to choose from, because if memory serves, using a later year will be a bit of a hack because the column and things don't line up very well.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:23 am    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

Sounds like your bus is in great hands.

Yes the dash and steering column varied by year, and I absolutely can’t remember a single dang detail, except that only ‘68 and ‘69 had the useless-but-attractive “flared” gauge cluster shade.

Robbie

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
Sounds like your bus is in great hands.

Yes the dash and steering column varied by year, and I absolutely can’t remember a single dang detail, except that only ‘68 and ‘69 had the useless-but-attractive “flared” gauge cluster shade.

Robbie

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Nice looking set up there. I love seeing the whole switch area taken up with switches and buttons. Where is your fan located? my retired 71 had a 2 speed fan located under the floor in front of the shift lever base to help pump a bit more air to the front feet/defroster vents and that made a huge difference.

Yeah I hadn't noticed that 68/69 had a more prominent instrument cluster hood, but now that i compare it to my 70, i see that.

But yeah, the rest of the dash is a bit different around where the ignition module/steering column bolts into it and you really can't use a later style dashboard on the early bays without using the later column and whatever.

I got pretty lucky with this 69 I just got because it was mechanically sound and bodywise pretty solid but the wiring and interior were just the worst combination of hacked + substandard aftermarket shit.

Like someone actually bought carpet that was made for a bus but of course busses never came with carpet, and just lots of generic parts and enough Home Depot nuts and bolts on this thing to supply a whole hardware store. And I parted out 2 69's so just going and like swapping out the crap for original German metric fasteners is a game of whack a mole. They apparently had $8000 worth of work done to this car back in 2010 and well, most of that work was not worth the paper of the receipt judging by all the wrong I've uncovered.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

ya, it was a huge PITA to figure out at first. Apparently its a mid year thing, where theres the wiring diagram, what you and i have, possibly another version, and then the 70 model year wiring.

Tara, once the coronafunk is over if you want to have a look see i am in eliot, Maine, like an hour north of boston. At the moment, the 69 has the dash pod removed, so you can see whats down there from a relatively unobstructed view.

We just said screw it and got a new harness from (i think) aircooled.net and installing it was one of the easiest jobs ive ever done on an ACVW.

right color and gauge wire, none of the dreaded, reb, blue, or yellow wire connectors.

Last month, i was basically an "overpaid paperboy", but as a mailman I am now an essential employee who is vital to american infrastructure, (which means its like christmastime parcels right now, so my volkswerkin is ...once again..on hold.

so its unlikely ill get to putting that particular project back together anytime soon.

Plus i want to work on MY bus.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

Glad to see you here again, Charles, hope you and your family are safe and healthy.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

Yarkle wrote:
ya, it was a huge PITA to figure out at first. Apparently its a mid year thing, where theres the wiring diagram, what you and i have, possibly another version, and then the 70 model year wiring.

Tara, once the coronafunk is over if you want to have a look see i am in eliot, Maine, like an hour north of boston. At the moment, the 69 has the dash pod removed, so you can see whats down there from a relatively unobstructed view.

We just said screw it and got a new harness from (i think) aircooled.net and installing it was one of the easiest jobs ive ever done on an ACVW.

right color and gauge wire, none of the dreaded, reb, blue, or yellow wire connectors.

Last month, i was basically an "overpaid paperboy", but as a mailman I am now an essential employee who is vital to american infrastructure, (which means its like christmastime parcels right now, so my volkswerkin is ...once again..on hold.

so its unlikely ill get to putting that particular project back together anytime soon.

Plus i want to work on MY bus.


Thanks. yeah,this thread has been helpful.. So even though it's raining today i hooked up a 4 pin relay and 9 pin hazard switch, with some success. Right now I have 4 way flashers just fine, they work with the key on or off, but the 4 way flashers only make the arrows on the gauge work when the key is on (not sure how that's supposed to be).

And the blinkers work from the stalk, front and rear like they're supposed to.

What still doesn't work-

The brake lights don't seem to work, though i certainly hooked up _some_ wire to the 54 terminal on the hazard switch. It does change colors a few times but ends up at a connector and then it's black and red and goes down below with the same wires that hook up to the brake light switch. once it's dry again I'll climb under there and see what's going on with the switches on the MC.

Still no dimmer action. I've tried a few dimmer relays with no luck but I don't think it's the relay. I have another simmer switch here and the way they're buillt the little brown/white wire

Its also a little weird that the red 30 wire going to the hazard switch was run off fuse #10. I'm gonna scroll back through this thread and see where it should go. I'm sorta running out of terminals for the clock and radio though I might have to double up and then double up some terminals.

With any luck i can squeeze all this back in and I'm going to fabricate a few metal L brackets to get the fuse box to solidly mount back to the dash where it belongs. For once in my life I'm going to have a bus where the fuse box and loom isn't hanging down. I have to say having the plastic part of the instrument cluster and top and front section of the dash off makes a lot of difference in accessibility. If I was going to make improvments to the bus design, I'd have there be a little hinged door on the dashboard right over the instrument cluster. (I'd also have a access panel to get to the fuel tank sender too)




oh my gods what a mess.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

The deal with the 9 terminal 4-way flasher switch is this:

- early bays (up through '71) use a single rear bulb filament for 4-way flash, turn and stop functions (the other filament in the bulb is used for tail lights).

- by default, the turn switch connects the rear turn lights to the brake switches so that they act as brake lights (terminals 54st, HR, HL). Moving the turn switch up or down causes the associated rear lamp to be (a) disconnected from the brake switches and then (b) reconnected to the flasher relay. Thus, it becomes a turn signal lamp, when the ignition switch is 'on'.

- to implement the 4-way flash function, the 4-way flasher switch does three things:

-- it switches the flasher relay power source from switched 12 volts to full-time 12 volts (terminals 30, 15, '+')

-- it connects both front turn lamps directly to the flasher relay (terminals 'R', 'L', 49a)

-- it disconnects the brake signal feed to the turn switch from the brake light switch and then reconnects it to the flasher relay (terminals 54, 54f, 49a).

-- the ground terminal 31 is for the indicator bulb inside the 4-way flasher switch.

-- the trick of this method is that all four turn lamps will flash, regardless of the position of the turn switch, and since the brake switches are effectively disconnected, they have no effect.

The later 7 terminal 4-way flasher switch is the same as the earlier 9 terminal switch, except it is missing the brake switching function (terminals 54, 54f), as the late buses ('72 on) have separate brake light bulbs, and the switching function isn't needed (e.g, a 9 terminal switch can be used as a 7 terminal switch, but not the other way around).

Headlight relay: if this has been replaced, it is probably with the Euro flash version (the only thing sold these days). See if it has a terminal 30. If so, this needs to be either (a) connected to a source of full-time 12 volt power (Euro flash mode), or (b) connected to relay terminal 56 (USA non-flash mode) - your choice.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

lastchancevw wrote:
Right now I have 4 way flashers just fine, they work with the key on or off, but the 4 way flashers only make the arrows on the gauge work when the key is on (not sure how that's supposed to be).


Telford pretty much got it, I just didn't see this part addressed… Your indicator light function is normal.

Quote:

Still no dimmer action. I've tried a few dimmer relays with no luck but I don't think it's the relay. I have another simmer switch here and the way they're buillt the little brown/white wire


You can diagnose the dimmer by manually grounding the brown/white wire from terminal S on the dimmer relay, key on. Pulling up on the stalk connects S to 31 (ground,) though I don't remember if the brown ground wire from the stalk terminates on the gauge cluster ground, or on the chassis itself. It shouldn't functionally matter, but the gauge cluster itself will need to be grounded if the stalk grounds to the cluster.

I've found this listing to be helpful as well:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

telford dorr wrote:
The deal with the 9 terminal 4-way flasher switch is this:

- early bays (up through '71) use a single rear bulb filament for 4-way flash, turn and stop functions (the other filament in the bulb is used for tail lights).

- by default, the turn switch connects the rear turn lights to the brake switches so that they act as brake lights (terminals 54s, HR, HL). Moving the turn switch up or down causes the associated rear lamp to be (a) disconnected from the brake switches and then (b) reconnected to the flasher relay. Thus, it becomes a turn signal lamp, when the ignition switch is 'on'.

- to implement the 4-way flash function, the 4-way flasher switch does three things:

-- it switches the flasher relay power source from switched 12 volts to full-time 12 volts (terminals 30, 15, '+')

-- it connects both front turn lamps directly to the flasher relay (terminals 'R', 'L', 49a)

-- it disconnects the brake signal feed to the turn switch from the brake light switch and then reconnects it to the flasher relay (terminals 54, 54f, 49a).

-- the ground terminal 31 is for the indicator bulb inside the 4-way flasher switch.

-- the trick of this method is that all four turn lamps will flash, regardless of the position of the turn switch, and since the brake switches are effectively disconnected, they have no effect.

The later 7 terminal 4-way flasher switch is the same as the earlier 9 terminal switch, except it is missing the brake switching function (terminals 54, 54f), as the late buses ('72 on) have separate brake light bulbs, and the switching function isn't needed (e.g, a 9 terminal switch can be used as a 7 terminal switch, but not the other way around).

Headlight relay: if this has been replaced, it is probably with the Euro flash version (the only thing sold these days). See if it has a terminal 30. If so, this needs to be either (a) connected to a source of full-time 12 volt power (Euro flash mode), or (b) connected to relay terminal 56 (USA non-flash mode) - your choice.


Aw cool, that clears things up a bit. I haven't been able to figure why the brake lights don't work, but i guess everything is wired up correctly down below if I have blinkers and hazards working at all. I'll have to retrace things tomorrow.

The dimmer relay is part # 311 941 583 A and has terminals S, F, 56 and 56a

Gotta say, the 50 year old flasher relay i put on there (big black flat thing with a screw hole in the middle) works with a nice satisfying loud TIK TOK TIK TOK when it's on. Hearing that sound sorta took me back 40 years..
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