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Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4)
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XXX/Rx/RnR
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll be dead before it will rust out. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

XXX/Rx/RnR wrote:
You'll be dead before it will rust out. Laughing


Brilliant. The thread is about magnesium shrouds on type 4 engines, and T1 mag cases, 091 mag cases etc., and you make a remark about rust on steel. Absolutely brilliant.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went from this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

To silver powder coating:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


not too worried about Rust on the fan shroud....
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bleyseng wrote:
I went from this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

To silver powder coating:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


not too worried about Rust on the fan shroud....


That looks great
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richparker wrote:
[email protected] wrote:


someone send me a beaded shroud and I will work my magic...free. you pay for shipping and materials


We all know you don't work for free....


I would to prove a point. plus, 3 pages of this? come on....
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
richparker wrote:
[email protected] wrote:


someone send me a beaded shroud and I will work my magic...free. you pay for shipping and materials


We all know you don't work for free....


I would to prove a point. plus, 3 pages of this? come on....


My aren't we cranky Smile DMV still giving you hell with their paperwork?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
...
We used to use it on helicopter parts but AFAIK most of it's components are now banned or tightly controlled by the enviro zealots and workplace health babysitters.
...

Ouch. I guess my work as an environmental engineer is not appreciated. That's OK, we're used to not being appreciated. That is, until the Cuyahoga River catches fire again, or we get some nice typhoid outbreaks. Or people suffer from more lead poisoning. Or the garbage piles up rotting in the streets and you can't trust your tap water. If I'm a zealot, it's for your own damned good.

Honestly, you seem to have no idea what chromium-IV can do to you.

If I'm a babysitter, then I guess that makes you the baby who has no clue why you even need a babysitter. Carry on. We'll do our best to keep you and the environment healthy, despite your whining. Rolling Eyes

Edit: Sorry for the rant. You just touched a nerve there.

raygreenwood wrote:
Busdaddy is spot on. Here is the process you are looking for. It can be more involved and nasty than you think.
http://www.finishing.com/faqs/magnesium.html

Be aware,,,you are going to need chromic acid (sulphuric acid and dichromate mixture and chromium trioxide). Some of the byproducts are Chrome 6 (hexavalent chrome)....which is highly highly carcinogenic. Ray

And you will have to dispose of all the stuff properly when you are done.

Now back to our original topic:

To the OP: I think your shroud looks great given the patina it has. And, FWIW, I just had mine blasted and it looks great. I intend to do nothing to it and see how it ages naturally.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Honestly, you seem to have no idea what chromium-IV can do to you.

Ask the folks in Hinkley CA about it.... they can't use the local water or they risk cancer. Much of the area is off limits because of it in the blowing dust.

http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/rwqcb6/water_issues/projects/pge/index.shtml





.............
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
My aren't we cranky Smile DMV still giving you hell with their paperwork?



Very Happy

all dialed in. I am up and running. the best part is, eurocars plus has been sending me work for weeks now. Evil or Very Mad

old boss of 15 years told me "everyone is replaceable" really? how's that working for you? instead of paying me 20 some odd an hour you're now paying me 100 some odd and hour. eat it, you c*[email protected]#$)*&^^[email protected]

a very close ex-coworker want's to bail too. guess all the text messages of a clean, well lit air conditioned shop flipped a switch with him. not 1 single person there is happy. it's ashamed, at one time it was an awesome place to work.

on that note, I would rather work 80 hours a week for myself than 40 for someone else. to say I am loving it is an understatement....


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



been snapping pics so when I get the website up, I can say "I'm so mother*ucking good, I do work for the area dealers"
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
SGKent wrote:
My aren't we cranky Smile DMV still giving you hell with their paperwork?



Very Happy

all dialed in. I am up and running. the best part is, eurocars plus has been sending me work for weeks now. Evil or Very Mad

old boss of 15 years told me "everyone is replaceable" really? how's that working for you? instead of paying me 20 some odd an hour you're now paying me 100 some odd and hour. eat it, you c*[email protected]#$)*&^^[email protected]

a very close ex-coworker want's to bail too. guess all the text messages of a clean, well lit air conditioned shop flipped a switch with him. not 1 single person there is happy. it's ashamed, at one time it was an awesome place to work.

on that note, I would rather work 80 hours a week for myself than 40 for someone else. to say I am loving it is an understatement....


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



been snapping pics so when I get the website up, I can say "I'm so mother*ucking good, I do work for the area dealers"


really glad to hear it went well. Make sure someone good, preferably close family, keeps the paperwork cause that seems to be the biggest PITA that self employed have. I've got too many friends whose book keepers created problems for them.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's me and my staff, all 3 of us. me, myself and I. trust me, I watch every penny (pass through my hands to the tax guy, the insurance guy, the...)
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bleyseng wrote:
I went from this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

To silver powder coating:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


not too worried about Rust on the fan shroud....


Bringing to life an old post - Bleyseng - what did you do with the fan? Did you have that powder coated to match or just spray paint it. I love the shroud color but I am nervous about having a fan powder coated - due to weigh and balance, and also the thickness of the powder coat on assembly.
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 6:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) Reply with quote

I powder coated my fan so I guess weíll see how it goes. I didnít dissemble the fan assembly but I did media blast it. I did silver for the fan and black for the pulley.
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) Reply with quote

ivwshane wrote:
I powder coated my fan so I guess weíll see how it goes. I didnít dissemble the fan assembly but I did media blast it. I did silver for the fan and black for the pulley.


was that Mike at Powdercoat-it on Roseville Rd? My concerns on the fan are thickening the vanes, getting it out of balance, or not having a solid surface to bolt to, or if it delaminates over time then the pieces go into the engine.

A thin coat of aluminum paint won't thin out with time but I am afraid that the powder coat might thin out and allow the fan to work a little. Did you do anything special like have them do a thin coat on the vanes, or fan?
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 1:01 am    Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
ivwshane wrote:
I powder coated my fan so I guess weíll see how it goes. I didnít dissemble the fan assembly but I did media blast it. I did silver for the fan and black for the pulley.


was that Mike at Powdercoat-it on Roseville Rd? My concerns on the fan are thickening the vanes, getting it out of balance, or not having a solid surface to bolt to, or if it delaminates over time then the pieces go into the engine.

A thin coat of aluminum paint won't thin out with time but I am afraid that the powder coat might thin out and allow the fan to work a little. Did you do anything special like have them do a thin coat on the vanes, or fan?


Lol all powder coating was done by me. Youíd have to be really bad at powder coating to put it on uneven enough to affect the balance. I also probably took off as much weight in grime as I put on in powder coat.
In one of the pics you can see where the bolt/washer rubbed on the coating and as you can see it didnít flake off.

Of course a professional powder coater could probably do a better job and be more precise but Iím happy how it turned out.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) Reply with quote

I am actually just about to do some small scale magnesium "Alodine" work in about 2-3 weeks (brake master cylinder pistons to start with). Some of this is also prep for doing the two shrouds I have on hand.

So since somewhere in the middle of this thread...back in 2011 the last time I had any input....I have been working with more and more plating and coating clients. Its a big part of several segments of my industry.

So working on two different chromate conversion type coatings....doing lots of research and a little testing. Would like to clarify a couple of things some of which busdaddy already has in the past .

1. No....this is not ONLY a proprietary Dow process. Dow is one of many (at one time) manufacturers who made a version....or sveral versions of this coating system.

2. Dow #1....as busdaddy noted.....is the original "chrome pickel" treatment. It used sodium dichromate, nitric acid and potassium fluoride.....that last one being damn nasty. It has almost exclusively used as an underbase for paint in aircraft.

Scroll down here and you can find the process.
https://www.finishing.com/faqs/magnesium.shtml

Its pretty much defunct now.....and only used as the Dow #19 process....which is an interim process in plating. It is useful but not exactly the same as what the factory used in large scale.
Its listed as a spot process. Its used to temporarily coat magnesium parts that must sit for a while before their next or final stages of coating. In that process chain.... its almost always stripped off again using a weak nitric or phosphoric acid dip, then back into something like sodium hydroxide....then into a final coating whether its electroplating, powder coating etc.

It IS a chromate.....but chrome 6 is only used in aerospace legacy projects (weapons, rockets, aircraft.....that cannot requalify a newer process). Chrome 3 and various other mixtures are used. Its most dichromte or trichromate. Still not healthy.....but nothing like chrome 6.
This is not quite a classic conversion coating. It is a variation of what is also used in modern zinc plating....on place of chrome or cadmium. But.....unlike classic conversion coating....these must be top sealed....immediately after application to have the same or better anti-corrosion lifespan as classic chrome 6 or cadmium conversion coatings.

Since Alodine as a company is long gone.....and was bought by Henkel.....when you research the Alodine product line.....they are all made by Henkel now.

Yes.....in aerospace....."Alodine" is thought of as an aluminum process....but factually they do make an Alodine chromate conversion system for magnesium. Different part # and chemistry and hideously expensive. Its mainly used as a spot coating for repair of original coatings on small scale.

2. Dow # 17....may have been used but I doubt it. It is an anodizing product. Thats an electrochemical coating. Conversion coatings use no electricity other than the electrolytic action of the chemistry and metal reaction.

Most chromate or dichromate dips that use a Dow process are listed as Dow #7.


So the gist is that these tan to pinkish to iridescent green coatings coatings we see on parts like the shroud are technically used as a "passivation". When a process like electroplating is done on a metal.....say...like zinc.....it forms a sacdifical anode layer that prevents corrosion.

The anodic/sacrificial coating does this by corroding itself... to prevent the base metal from corroding. This process starts virtually immediatly after emerging from the plating bath when it hits oxygen.
It can take years or decades for that anodic coating to corrode away into powder.....and at that point the base metal will start corroding. So to delay the start that process....they dip it in a chromate conversion coating......which is like a sacrifical anode ...for the sacrificial anode.

The outer conversion coating needs to corrode away first before oxygen and moisture can get to the zinc or whatever anode they plated onto it. It effectively doubles the life of the plating in many cases.

With the magnesium like our shrouds.....since its not plated.....these conversion coatings are reacting with a surface layer of the base metal.....to form a light anodic layer a few microns thick (if that much....more like angstroms). It slows down oxygen from reaching the metal surface....and starting the corrosion process.

But...eventually oxygen gets in here or there (years down the line if done properly).....and the metal starts corroding. It forms a corrosion layer that spreads laterally along the metal surface under the chromate coating...causing the coating fo flake off and peel like snake skin.

The kind of modern version available these days from companies like Henkel, MacDermid and few others.....is basically a single part tri-chromate dip used after a soak in sodium hydroxide to totally degrease.....then a very quick dip in a light acid/water mixture just to neutralize the caustic.....and then into the chromate dip for a minute or two. The longer it goes the darker it gets.

These are very similar to modern zinc top chromate dips......and the key is since they are not the heavy chromates like those used years ago......they must be top sealed to get equivalent lifespan.
Thats really just any of dozens of clear gloss or satin paints you spray on to keep oxygen from starting oxidization of the chromate. Since chromates are some of the best adhesion primers in the world.....if you do this cleanly.....the sealer you spray on should keep it corrosion free and looking good for years.

So yes....you can do this fairly simply at home. Cheaply......yeah....kind of.....if you do say....three shrouds. Expect about $250 in chemicals. And no with these modern products there is not much to dispose of.

This post is too long already but if you want a product list let me know and I will post it.

Yeah.....its probably simpler for most to just paint or powdercoat and redo it every 8-10 years. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) Reply with quote

Thanks Ray. This thread is a great place for that info. I know that here in California you can order Alodine but you can't find anyone who will take it when you are done with it because it can contain small traces of Chromium 6 as an oxidization byproduct. Dumping it is a fate worse than death if one gets caught. The disaster super fund at Hinkley was the reason the state changed a lot of rules on it.

My current thinking is to powder coat the shroud, and paint the fan - with the black portion being powder coated too.
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Thanks Ray. This thread is a great place for that info. I know that here in California you can order Alodine but you can't find anyone who will take it when you are done with it because it can contain small traces of Chromium 6 as an oxidization byproduct. Dumping it is a fate worse than death if one gets caught. The disaster super fund at Hinkley was the reason the state changed a lot of rules on it.

My current thinking is to powder coat the shroud, and paint the fan - with the black portion being powder coated too.



Yes.....the original "Alodine"....has chrome 6. You pretty much have to be a licensed, regulated plating house to buy that product from Henkel. What you could buy is the chrome 3 version....must less of an issue...but even though chrome 3 is nothing like chrome 6....its still slightly carcinogenic...hence by decree of proposition 65....you cannot get rid of it in CA. You probably cannot even buy it unless you are industrial.

After reading this thread a few years back....I started looking around to see if I could buy...Dow #1...#17....etc. I found plenty of info but no "product". Its when I realized that its a Dow "process" Rolling Eyes Laughing ....and there are numerous ways chemically to do it....so each plating/treatment house kind of has a proprietary process for Dow #1, Dow #17 etc....that they do not speak of. They want to do it for you....for $$$$...not give away their methods.

I "think"...if most of us could get that "goldish-tan" color on our shroud....with even a small amount of corrosion protection....and then just put a high temp satin clear on that would last a decade or so....we would be happy. I think I would.

So....I will try a test coming up. I have a product I got from Caswell plating. Its primary use is as surface passivization ...a chromate replacement dip. It does have some chrome 3 in it . I am doing some zinc plating for small brake parts coming up soon. I just got some new pure zinc anodes a couple of weeks ago.

This is primarily a product for zinc. It reacts with the zinc...to form a coating with very high corrosion resistance...and gives that goldish tan coloration....and does not have to be top coated or sealed.

I have red that this will very slightly react with magnesium and will color it....but also has to be sealed because its not a strong electrolytic reaction.

That being said.....if you took your shroud down to a ZINC PLATING shop....and simply had it plated in zinc.....and then dipped it in this solution....it would work excellently!

https://www.caswellplating.com/yellow-chromate.html

So that little can makes 4 gallons of solution. I have rad from others that since it is time weighted for color by how long you dip it....you could dilute further and make 5 gallons. Two cans would make 10 gallons. In a shallow pan....you could do a shroud for about $60 worth of chemical. In fact....if you let it drip off and do not waste it you could do about a dozen shrouds.

Well...for that matter ...if you take your shroud to a zinc plating house....just have them chromate dip it for you.

However....in general if you take your magnesium parts to a zinc plating house....they will say you are crazy (unless they have experience with zinc plating magnesium)....because zinc....and magnesium....are close to the same charge strength. The zinc while it can be plated on with the right chemistry....will not be a sacrificial anode to the magnesium. However....it does give create a bonding layer for the zinc chromate to react with....and THAT will protect both the zinc and the magnesium.

The more I look at the shrouds....the more I think this could also be what VW did. They can simply take a giant metal basket of shrouds and put them in a zinc plating bath for 5 minutes...rinse...and then a 45 second dip in a chromate solution....done. It would be almost indistinguishable from Alodine. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) Reply with quote

Ray - we have a fellow in SoCal who does the process. He runs an ad here. His work is excellent - he did my 091 case for me. example: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2357259
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Ray - we have a fellow in SoCal who does the process. He runs an ad here. His work is excellent - he did my 091 case for me. example: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2357259


Yes. That is the "Bonderite 5200" from the looks of it. I saw his ad in tbe 914 forum.

It ia non chrome. Its tbe Henkel Alodine product. It works pretty well but should be sealed. Its designed as an oxygen barrier....a pre-coat for parts that will eventially be painted. But in our use.....it will probably be a long enough life that we wouldnt care. He probably is sealing it. Henkel recommends a product called Deoxylyte 200 NC.

https://krayden.com/technical-data-sheet/henk_bonderite_m-nt_5200_mu_technical_data_sheet/

Its a slight acid......self etching basically. If you are doing it for a service ane have a tank....its horribly expensive ....about $250 for 5 gal. But if you keep it clean you can use it,for ages. Ray
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