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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:36 pm Post subject: Replacing the Final Drive to Automatic Trans Seals |
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Replacing the.....
Automatic Transmission Differential Seal PN 089.409.529D
These are the two seals placed back to back between the Differential and Automatic Transmission.
These seals prevent the ATF from mixing with the gear oil. When they fail the ATF fluid level increases and begins to take on the horrible gear oil smell.
You will need two new seals...... 089.409.529D
Final Drive to Automatic Seals ..... VC.ATSEALS (VanCafe)
And replacement oil for the Final Drive and the Auto Trans.
This may mean new pan gaskets too but that's up to you.
Remove the Transaxle assembly from the Van.
Drain the fluids.
The entire assembly is heavy, each separate assembly is still heavy so enlist a strong helper or do as I did and use my engine hoist.
I stood the assembly engine end up in a Milk Crate. I blocked the unit so as not to tip over.
The chain around the bell housing helped for sure! ......
The two units are held together with just four (4) 13mm nuts with washers under each nut.
Remove the four nuts and washers........
Once the nuts were removed I raised the Final drive assembly but the Auto trans held fast to it.
Having read about doing this I knew that there was a large ORing around the circumference of the final drive unit.
Here is a photo showing the ORing and the corrosion that I needed to break free.......
I took a block of wood and a hammer and while the unit hung a half inch or so I tapped around the final drive allowing gravity to help separate the two.
It did........
Here is the final drive without the Auto Trans.......
I put the final drive unit on a bench so I could work on it.
You can see the nose cone that supports the shaft, it is held on with five 13mm head bolts.....
A close up of the seals......
While the seals can be dug out in place, I chose to remove the housing and replace them in a more rational manner......
Here are photos of the housing showing the two seals in place. They are installed outside face to outside face........
The old seals......
_________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50258
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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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IMO the pinion shaft seal and the governor shaft seal need to be done at the same interval as the seals you are replacing. They too separate the fluids in the two boxes. The pinion shaft seal is a bit more involved to replace as the final drive has to be totally torn down to get to it, while the governor shaft seal can just be a bit of a pain to deal with |
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Merian Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014 Posts: 5212 Location: Orygun
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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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very useful thread
but don't you also need that O-ring? you aren't going to reuse it are you?
and I didn't see it in the pic... |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:47 am Post subject: |
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Wildthings wrote: |
IMO the pinion shaft seal and the governor shaft seal need to be done at the same interval as the seals you are replacing. They too separate the fluids in the two boxes. The pinion shaft seal is a bit more involved to replace as the final drive has to be totally torn down to get to it, while the governor shaft seal can just be a bit of a pain to deal with |
Should have talked to YOU before I Began I guess.
I've ONLY ever read about these two shaft seals as being the guilty parties to oil exchange taking place.
I must confess, I do not fully understand the role of the governor mounted on the Final Drive housing....
I also don't see why I need to remove the metal plate and replace the paper gasket under it either....... Photo 4 item 49 ?
Then again, I Often fix things without possessing a full understanding of how they work, though I really try to grasp the concept whenever possible.
Oh well...... On this go around, just the two shaft seals will be renewed. No time for deeper surgery right now.
A few photos...... What seals do you speak of ??
I don't see one for a Governor shaft.......
Pinion shaft seal? ........
Photo 1.....
Photo2......
Photo 3......
Photo 4.....
Photo 5....
Photo 6.....
The seals under bearing cap, the two ORings?
O rings..... 78 x 3 and 6 x 2 under the bearing cap.
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50258
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:30 am Post subject: |
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The governor shaft seal is #5 in the next to last drawing and the pinion shaft seal is #1 in the last drawing.
I assume you know about the torque converter seal? |
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HoustonPhotog Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2013 Posts: 1514 Location: Houston, TX
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dart330 Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2004 Posts: 452 Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Dave, how do those old seals feel? Is the rubber still pliable or hard as a rock? I don't see any cracks in the photos. Just curious as to what would cause them to fail if they are visibly ok. |
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:42 am Post subject: |
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I also don't see why I need to remove the metal plate and replace the paper gasket under it either....... Photo 4 item 49 ?
I would replace the two paper gaskets..very easy to do. They do fail when they get old and you get the dreaded ATF/gear oil mix when the paper gaskets fail.
That pinion shaft seal (the one you have to take the entire diff apart to get to) very rarely give problems..knock on wood..the governor shaft seal can be a problem and is very fiddly to replace.
The two back to back seals absolutely should be replaced..a known weak area in the 010 transmission/transaxle. Replace the paper gaskets and "O" rings. |
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tpinthepack Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004 Posts: 810 Location: clearwater,florida
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Dave
What about the 14mm seal on the shifter lever? I noticed mine was leaking there. Not much, but it may be easy to do at this point.
I like how you attack stuff, true meaning of Get Her Done!
Tony _________________ TP in the Pack (I am a cyclist)
1968 Manx N.O.S. w/ Barrett Chassis
1960 Single Cab 1914 w/ 40 DLRA's
1990 Vanagon DOKA
1972 Super Beetle
1979 Super Beetle Convertible
2011 Porsche Cayenne |
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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The shifter shaft has some "O" rings in it. (at least one maybe two) The "O" ring(s) go inside some machined grooves in the shaft. I think there is one more "O"ring on the outside under the shift lever too..it sits between the shifter lever and the transmission case.
To get to the shifter shaft and replace the "O" rings that ride inside the shifter shaft grooves requires pulling the valve body and removing a big (17mm I think) nut that holds the shifter shaft/shifter selector inside the transmission. Then you can pull the shifter shaft and replace the "O" rings.
You could just take the exterior shfter lever off on the outside of the transmission and replace the "O" ring that lives behind it. It may not work very well but worth a try. I recall it just sits there and may be only there to keep water and debis out of the transmission case..not stop ATF from leaking. . |
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Merian Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014 Posts: 5212 Location: Orygun
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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When the Auto Trans. is replaced, is it common to renew these seals?
I have a service receipt from a PO that says my A/T was replaced in 2002 with a rebuilt unit about 45,000 miles ago by Royal Auto Service in Portland, OR.
Here is the parts list:
1 N 900 784 01 O-RING SEAL 3.95
1 038 117 070 A O-RING SEAL 5.75
1 25255 / 25230 AUTOMATIC/FINAL REBUILT 2495.00
I don't know where Royal got the rebuilt trans. from, so am trying to guess as to whether the suspect seals were replaced. Having a shop R&R the thing for seals doesn't look cheap, and it's a pretty big job for me and my floor jack... |
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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I would think for $2500 would be a refreshed unit with new seals/frictions/pistons and gaskets..you would hope so in that would still be a steep price without a full rebuild. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50258
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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If the entire transaxle was serviced then the seals would have been replaced at that time, while if just the auto section was rebuilt, the seals (particularly the harder to access ones) may not have been replaced.
FWIW, I have ended up dead on the road once when the governor seal failed and once when the pinion shaft seal failed. Neither failure was due to wear though, but due to SNAFU's on the part of the guy(s) who installed the seals. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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dart330 wrote: |
Dave, how do those old seals feel? Is the rubber still pliable or hard as a rock? I don't see any cracks in the photos. Just curious as to what would cause them to fail if they are visibly ok. |
The old seals are not dry, by comparison the throttle body seals I Removed last week were absolutely rock hard, these seals still have a pliable nature but I would describe them as "rough".
If you slide your finger around the lip you can feel a roughness to them, not yet cracked and dry but beginning to be so.
Being drenched with oils probably prolonged their life.
I only wish I had more knowledge about this task before I began this seal replacement journey........ hopefully those who follow will be better informed.
This thread has been an eye opener for me. Sadly, Because Of my time frame I Will only install the New back to back shaft seals and reassemble. I will be tackling the bigger reseal job on another day in the future after I've gone to California.
Again, what does the Transmission Governor do?
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50258
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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djkeev wrote: |
Again, what does the Transmission Governor do?
Dave |
It regulates the full throttle shift points. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Merian Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014 Posts: 5212 Location: Orygun
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Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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zehr gut - old seals, even if not damaged on the sealing surface, are less flexible, and closer to falling apart
the only thing on a car that can last many decades is the unit body (only if steel and if kept protected from rust)
next are unstressed or low stressed suspension arms, again if steel
Al is next - can't retain integrity if flexed 100k times like steel can
Mg parts are in the immortal words of a very knowledgable Porsche person "like congealed butter"
rubber & plastic are temporary (6 years to about 30-40) and that includes the plastic covers on all your wiring
- feeling better now??? |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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