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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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 Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| can you post you're modifications.....early/late split, cruising rpms/oil pressure, doghouse/356 pulley, oil brand/grade, oil pump size, dizzy, carbs single/dual. Average head temps/oil temps during summer. Thanks Eric. |
Sure.
Transaxle:
Big nut standard geared RGBs with .82 4th and 3.875 R&P. First tops out at 12 MPH @ 3,000 RPM. Second is 24 MPH @ 3,000 RPM. Third is 44 MPH @ 3,000 RPM. Fourth lugs below 2,000 RPM @ 45 MPH where all the lower gears do fine as low as 1,500 RPM. Fourth does 58 MPH @ 3,000 RPM and is our cruising speed to keep oil temp below 220 F and get better 23 MPG with 205/75R15s, and with slightly taller side wall 195R15 rear tires does 60 MPH @ 3,000 RPM. Using 607 Almasol gear oil. We only go above 3,000 RPM for short bursts like when up shifting on a steep hill to avoid lugging. Have taken it up to 70 MPH for just a few minutes @ 3,500 RPM twice, in 70 F weather engine oil temp does quickly start to shoot up.
Engine built by Bear's VW machine (RIP) in San Diego CA:
1641 slip in Cofab cylinders, AE dual relief case, 7.15 compression with .020" shims, Brazilian SP heads with 9mm exhaust stems, stock rocker and vavle springs, H 30 PIC carb with 115 main, 133 air correction jet, 52 pilot , counter weighted 69 mm crankshaft, vintage EMPI oil filter/pump, type 4 oil cooler in stock dog house shroud and 35 mm wide stock fan, 356 Porsche gen pulley, DH large crank shaft pulley with Fresh Start belt 15350, Schneider 248-54F (going by deduction for the cam # from the website due to so long ago and memory, suggest if you are building an engine checking with Schneider to see if they have any other low RPM higher torque cam not listed just in case) Volks Type 1 Camshaft designed for the low 1,000 to 3,500 RPM and more torque. 113 905 205 vacuum advance distributor. Castrol 30 Wt. oil doing 40 PSI @ 3,000 RPM in the mid 80s F just this last weekend, run 10/30 WT. late Sept to Late May due to cooler weather, and idle shows no lower than 10 PSI with either oil.
No head temp data. Had problems with spark plug mounted sender. Will fix at next tear down to at least long block the sender directly to the head as done for VW powered aircraft.
http://www.aeroconversions.com/support/instruction_sheets/CHT_Install.pdf
Did run air/fuel mixture gauge and to get carb jetting just right.
The two problems upon receiving the engine were:
Way too stiff of oil relief by pass valve spring. Replaced with stock. See the VW Official Service Manual for post-1967 buses for more spring info there.
Brazilian heads had lots of casting flash blocking up the cooling fins. Removed with circular saw and carbide blade on outside and drill/file between the cylinders. Also drilled open fins similar to shown in Workshop manual for 40 HP heads for a bit more cooling. |
Cool......thanks for the details. I enjoy reading true facts, rather than opinions....... Stuff that works😀 I may be a vw mechanic 20 years from now.....haaaaaa. |
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VWCOOL
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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yes but it seems to me that until now, Johnny, you've largely been believing - and acting on - opinions from the interwebs rather than facts.
You are still casting around for stuff about oil viscositiies, cooling tins etc used by others... that really have no bearing on your installation.
I am not undermining the importance of VW engine cooling,. however, your days would be so much easier if you accept the fact that 220F is not "running hot" for a mild-driven VW engine - as your engine proves - and you have no reason to be "STUMPED again"
If you remain convinced that your engine 'running hot;' do you have any data - not opinion - for say, a standard 1600 to compare it to?
What does your engine builder say about all this? Mine would be horrified that a customer was putting his days of work - and reputation based on decades of success - at risk based on mythinformation and not actual facts/data... especially when the engine has not even been run-in yet |
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69813
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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I admit I'm being lazy here on not going through the entire thread but how are you getting an oil temperature of 225F-235F?
I remember it being a gauge but please correct me if wrong.
Have you verified the gauge is reading correctly?
Stick it in boiling water and make sure it reads 212F
(boiling point of water)
Anyway, my stock '63 1500cc Bus runs at 220-230 all the time in Arizona, it hasn't blown up yet. This has been measured with a thermometer down the dipstick tube and also with my laser thermometer on the case.
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| EverettB wrote: |
I admit I'm being lazy here on not going through the entire thread but how are you getting an oil temperature of 225F-235F?
I remember it being a gauge but please correct me if wrong.
Have you verified the gauge is reading correctly?
Stick it in boiling water and make sure it reads 212F
(boiling point of water)
Anyway, my stock '63 1500cc Bus runs at 220-230 all the time in Arizona, it hasn't blown up yet. This has been measured with a thermometer down the dipstick tube and also with my laser thermometer on the case. |
I use a electronic meat thermometer down the dipstick tube........its all I have to go on now. Yea its been verified with boiling water. |
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VWCOOL
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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See! VDO even gives you a 'green zone' up to 125C/260F! |
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
yes but it seems to me that until now, Johnny, you've largely been believing - and acting on - opinions from the interwebs rather than facts.
You are still casting around for stuff about oil viscositiies, cooling tins etc used by others... that really have no bearing on your installation.
I am not undermining the importance of VW engine cooling,. however, your days would be so much easier if you accept the fact that 220F is not "running hot" for a mild-driven VW engine - as your engine proves - and you have no reason to be "STUMPED again"
If you remain convinced that your engine 'running hot;' do you have any data - not opinion - for say, a standard 1600 to compare it to?
What does your engine builder say about all this? Mine would be horrified that a customer was putting his days of work - and reputation based on decades of success - at risk based on mythinformation and not actual facts/data... especially when the engine has not even been run-in yet |
May I say.........first of all I have around $8,000 in this engine, incl., A1exhaust, still dumping money in it, not chump change to me.....second the builder said he likes to see temps around 200, most people agree they want temps below 220.....thats why I chose a top builder such as Pat Downs, I want the most optimal performance out of this engine (may have cooled better in a beetle). I'm planning on driving this bus everyday with the Nov, BB trip to Florida planed.......thirdly I have friends that are a stickler when it comes to their bus........loaded westy 1500/1600 long distance trips 180 temps., as a comparison. I have a 60 bus which this engine is going in once I get painted...it has a 1600 w/excessive end play but runs good I drive it anywhere temps are 230. Same measurement down the dipstick tube......but its wore out and I don't care....I will drive it till she blows or throws a rod!!!!!! |
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KevinAlbrecht
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 970
Location: Ocean City > Boca > Pompano > Kirkland > Eugene
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| May I say.........first of all I have around $8,000 in this engine, incl., A1exhaust, still dumping money in it, not chump change to me.....second the builder said he likes to see temps around 200 |
If you have that much money into the motor, and are getting unsatisfactory run results (unsatisfactory according to the builder) then I would wager this should be put back on them, right?
Eight grand for a 1904 is crazy money.
I understand you want to get the consensus of folks who have perhaps more experience than you, but if the builder is reputable, than you should listen to them for reasons it running hot. If you value our opinion more than the builders, then maybe that is something to give you pause.
I have a similar situation with my 2051 I had built locally. My pressure light would flicker after driving in 90+ degree temps, and when I would run back with a thermo, it seemed high. The motor has probably less than 500 miles on it, and I have been told the break-in period will have higher temps. I think I have finally have the issue isolated to a maladjusted thermostat. I never ran one before, so i just installed it, without adjustment.
Now I only have about a third as much in this motor, but I still would be pissed if it blew up. At some point you need to drive it. If you are having good pressure, I wouldn't worry about the extra heat while it is settling in. You shouldn't be beating on it until then anyway.
If you are running a thermo, make sure you adjust it correctly.
Hope this helps.
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Pat D
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| KevinAlbrecht wrote: |
| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| May I say.........first of all I have around $8,000 in this engine, incl., A1exhaust, still dumping money in it, not chump change to me.....second the builder said he likes to see temps around 200 |
If you have that much money into the motor, and are getting unsatisfactory run results (unsatisfactory according to the builder) then I would wager this should be put back on them, right?
Eight grand for a 1904 is crazy money.
I understand you want to get the consensus of folks who have perhaps more experience than you, but if the builder is reputable, than you should listen to them for reasons it running hot. If you value our opinion more than the builders, then maybe that is something to give you pause.
I have a similar situation with my 2051 I had built locally. My pressure light would flicker after driving in 90+ degree temps, and when I would run back with a thermo, it seemed high. The motor has probably less than 500 miles on it, and I have been told the break-in period will have higher temps. I think I have finally have the issue isolated to a maladjusted thermostat. I never ran one before, so i just installed it, without adjustment.
Now I only have about a third as much in this motor, but I still would be pissed if it blew up. At some point you need to drive it. If you are having good pressure, I wouldn't worry about the extra heat while it is settling in. You shouldn't be beating on it until then anyway.
If you are running a thermo, make sure you adjust it correctly.
Hope this helps. |
As far as my reputation goes, I would hope it is pretty good. I have been doing this for 30 years and have 100's of engines running in buses across the world. About your remark about the OP's engine being expensive, it is a quality built engine with extremely high quality parts. No, the engine did not cost $8k from me, not sure where that price came from? As to your engine being less expensive, well maybe that's a good reason your oil light is coming on at operating temps 
All early buses have heating issues with bigger than stock engines and many have heating issues with stock engines. I recommend to all my customers an external oil cooler and fan, it is a necessity in an early bus. The OP does not want an external cooler, so he is trying different ways to bring the temp down. I can only offer my opinion, if a customer doesn't want to use it, that is their prerogative.
Engine compartment airflow is also an issue in early buses with larger displacement/dual carb engines. Anything that allows more air into the engine compartment will bring down head and oil temps.
Is 225 degree oil temp too high, no it isn't. Is it too high for my liking, yes it is. I like to see around 200 degree oil temp, this gives some cushion when the vehicle experiences hotter days, inclines, heavy loads, etc.
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Pat, Im too fast slow me downs! |
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Pat D wrote: |
| KevinAlbrecht wrote: |
| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| May I say.........first of all I have around $8,000 in this engine, incl., A1exhaust, still dumping money in it, not chump change to me.....second the builder said he likes to see temps around 200 |
If you have that much money into the motor, and are getting unsatisfactory run results (unsatisfactory according to the builder) then I would wager this should be put back on them, right?
Eight grand for a 1904 is crazy money.
I understand you want to get the consensus of folks who have perhaps more experience than you, but if the builder is reputable, than you should listen to them for reasons it running hot. If you value our opinion more than the builders, then maybe that is something to give you pause.
I have a similar situation with my 2051 I had built locally. My pressure light would flicker after driving in 90+ degree temps, and when I would run back with a thermo, it seemed high. The motor has probably less than 500 miles on it, and I have been told the break-in period will have higher temps. I think I have finally have the issue isolated to a maladjusted thermostat. I never ran one before, so i just installed it, without adjustment.
Now I only have about a third as much in this motor, but I still would be pissed if it blew up. At some point you need to drive it. If you are having good pressure, I wouldn't worry about the extra heat while it is settling in. You shouldn't be beating on it until then anyway.
If you are running a thermo, make sure you adjust it correctly.
Hope this helps. |
As far as my reputation goes, I would hope it is pretty good. I have been doing this for 30 years and have 100's of engines running in buses across the world. About your remark about the OP's engine being expensive, it is a quality built engine with extremely high quality parts. No, the engine did not cost $8k from me, not sure where that price came from? As to your engine being less expensive, well maybe that's a good reason your oil light is coming on at operating temps
All early buses have heating issues with bigger than stock engines and many have heating issues with stock engines. I recommend to all my customers an external oil cooler and fan, it is a necessity in an early bus. The OP does not want an external cooler, so he is trying different ways to bring the temp down. I can only offer my opinion, if a customer doesn't want to use it, that is their prerogative.
Engine compartment airflow is also an issue in early buses with larger displacement/dual carb engines. Anything that allows more air into the engine compartment will bring down head and oil temps.
Is 225 degree oil temp too high, no it isn't. Is it too high for my liking, yes it is. I like to see around 200 degree oil temp, this gives some cushion when the vehicle experiences hotter days, inclines, heavy loads, etc. |
$7,200 engine incl. shipping, $800.00 exhaust A1 sidewinder ceramic. $8,000.00 |
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| KevinAlbrecht wrote: |
| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| May I say.........first of all I have around $8,000 in this engine, incl., A1exhaust, still dumping money in it, not chump change to me.....second the builder said he likes to see temps around 200 |
If you have that much money into the motor, and are getting unsatisfactory run results (unsatisfactory according to the builder) then I would wager this should be put back on them, right?
Eight grand for a 1904 is crazy money.
I understand you want to get the consensus of folks who have perhaps more experience than you, but if the builder is reputable, than you should listen to them for reasons it running hot. If you value our opinion more than the builders, then maybe that is something to give you pause.
I have a similar situation with my 2051 I had built locally. My pressure light would flicker after driving in 90+ degree temps, and when I would run back with a thermo, it seemed high. The motor has probably less than 500 miles on it, and I have been told the break-in period will have higher temps. I think I have finally have the issue isolated to a maladjusted thermostat. I never ran one before, so i just installed it, without adjustment.
Now I only have about a third as much in this motor, but I still would be pissed if it blew up. At some point you need to drive it. If you are having good pressure, I wouldn't worry about the extra heat while it is settling in. You shouldn't be beating on it until then anyway.
If you are running a thermo, make sure you adjust it correctly.
Hope this helps. |
Never said I was dissatisfied....... Motor runs great.... Just trying to get the most out of her without installing a external cooler. If these mods don't work....I will install one. |
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KevinAlbrecht
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 970
Location: Ocean City > Boca > Pompano > Kirkland > Eugene
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| As far as my reputation goes, I would hope it is pretty good....As to your engine being less expensive, well maybe that's a good reason your oil light is coming on at operating temps Wink |
Pat,
My motor is new to me, but I'll figure it out. I didn't mean to start a pissing match. Just offering an opinion, and trying to help Johnny enjoy his new motor.
My comments were also not directed at you, but thanks for jumping in to defend yourself. Shouldn't you be helping him bring his motor temps down?
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Kevin Albrecht
Wait, what...?
| WideFive wrote: |
| Single carbs are for lawn mowers! |
Don't forget those seat-belts!
Click to view image |
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| KevinAlbrecht wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As far as my reputation goes, I would hope it is pretty good....As to your engine being less expensive, well maybe that's a good reason your oil light is coming on at operating temps Wink |
Pat,
My motor is new to me, but I'll figure it out. I didn't mean to start a pissing match. Just offering an opinion, and trying to help Johnny enjoy his new motor.
My comments were also not directed at you, but thanks for jumping in to defend yourself. Shouldn't you be helping him bring his motor temps down? |
Builder suggested an external cooler........installed a 356 pulley to get more air flow to the heads, and hoping the type4 cooler will bring oil temps down a little. |
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Pat D
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| KevinAlbrecht wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As far as my reputation goes, I would hope it is pretty good....As to your engine being less expensive, well maybe that's a good reason your oil light is coming on at operating temps Wink |
Pat,
My motor is new to me, but I'll figure it out. I didn't mean to start a pissing match. Just offering an opinion, and trying to help Johnny enjoy his new motor.
My comments were also not directed at you, but thanks for jumping in to defend yourself. Shouldn't you be helping him bring his motor temps down? |
Your comments included the builder who was indeed myself. No pissing match, just defending myself from your typical "samba" type remarks. As for helping him bring his temps down, read the entire thread. The OP and I have exchanged many emails and have a good customer/client relationship.
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Last edited by Pat D on Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pat D
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| KevinAlbrecht wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As far as my reputation goes, I would hope it is pretty good....As to your engine being less expensive, well maybe that's a good reason your oil light is coming on at operating temps Wink |
Pat,
My motor is new to me, but I'll figure it out. I didn't mean to start a pissing match. Just offering an opinion, and trying to help Johnny enjoy his new motor.
My comments were also not directed at you, but thanks for jumping in to defend yourself. Shouldn't you be helping him bring his motor temps down? |
Builder suggested an external cooler........installed a 356 pulley to get more air flow to the heads, and hoping the type4 cooler will bring oil temps down a little. |
The problem is Rex, there isn't enough air in the engine compartment to get more air to the heads. Speeding up the fan is great, but without the additional volume of air to take advantage of the increased fan speed, it accomplishes nothing. It's like putting bigger main jets in a carb, if the fuel pump isn't supporting enough volume to the carb, the bigger jets are accomplishing nothing.
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Pat, Im too fast slow me downs! |
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Pat D wrote: |
| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| KevinAlbrecht wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As far as my reputation goes, I would hope it is pretty good....As to your engine being less expensive, well maybe that's a good reason your oil light is coming on at operating temps Wink |
Pat,
My motor is new to me, but I'll figure it out. I didn't mean to start a pissing match. Just offering an opinion, and trying to help Johnny enjoy his new motor.
My comments were also not directed at you, but thanks for jumping in to defend yourself. Shouldn't you be helping him bring his motor temps down? |
Builder suggested an external cooler........installed a 356 pulley to get more air flow to the heads, and hoping the type4 cooler will bring oil temps down a little. |
The problem is Rex, there isn't enough air in the engine compartment to get more air to the heads. Speeding up the fan is great, but without the additional volume of air to take advantage of the increased fan speed, it accomplishes nothing. It's like putting bigger main jets in a carb, if the fuel pump isn't supporting enough volume to the carb, the bigger jets are accomplishing nothing. |
The 356 pulley dropped temps of 10-12 degrees. I understand I need to bring more air into the engine compartment we have discussed this a couple of times, (makes sense) to me....I am just doing things in stages to see the results. Just don't like the idea of removing the complete front firewall tin or scoops hanging on the side. So I just got to figure out the best way for me to do it. Probably will pipe some air into the passenger firewall tin somehow, once I see if these mods make any difference or not? Thanks for you're help. |
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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3439
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Buy a spare front tin. Punch some holes in it and give it a shot. Need to make your testing criteria repeatable (as best as you can) |
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joe cool
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2006
Posts: 1259
Location: Yolo County CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| NACA ducts! |
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VWCOOL
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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if this thread wasn't so funny, it'd be serious!
Johnny, this has been mentioned already: get a second breast plate and cut it in half. Discard the section in front/below the fan. Refit the section that the oil cooler duct pokes through. This is a quick and worthwhile trick for getting more air into the engine bay
Contrary to what has been said here and elsewhere, unless you have 1000hp and drive everywhere at WOT, your four carby throats are not robbing your fan of air  |
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Low Bräu
Samba Member
Joined: December 12, 2003
Posts: 346
Location: Merritt Island, FL
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Out of curiosity, did you try getting more fresh air to the motor or make any other changes to help with cooling?
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Low Bräu wrote: |
| Out of curiosity, did you try getting more fresh air to the motor or make any other changes to help with cooling? |
Still fabricating my Type4 cooler....I was going to pop rivet the exhaust tin to shroud, but I decided to weld 6mm nuts on and use threaded screws to fasten exhaust tin.........it will be sooooooo much easier If I ever have oil cooler problems to simply unscrew exhaust tin and remove vs removing carbs/intakes, fan shroud, lthrottle linkage thermostat, hoses, etc.......Just need to tack weld these nuts on, then send fanshroud to powdercoater. Probably will be another week to finish. Will update post when I get results with new head temperature, oil pressure, and oil dipstick readings. |
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