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eche_bus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
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 Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:51 pm Post subject: Late 70s alternator air boot question |
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I went to put my fan shroud together today. Step 1 was to install the (55A) alternator boot onto the shroud. I'd bought the reproduction part 021 903 655 B to use as my old one is unusable.
Trouble is, the part falls out of the shroud hole with the slightest movement. Now I learn that the original part was 021 903 655 D and that part is different to fit the larger late bay Type 4 shroud hole. Not only is the shroud fitting diameter different, these parts have different heights!
These "B" parts are being sold all over as a fit for late bay shrouds, and I've found no source for a "D" part. WTF. 
So please tell me ... where can I possibly buy an NOS "D" part, or how in the heck are people using the "B" part without putting themselves in major risk of a big air leak and an overheating alternator down the road? I thought of silicone-ing it to the shroud, but doesn't it need to rotate with alt. belt adjustment? |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51113
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Is that with the spring clip inside it?
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eche_bus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| It sure was. I even went so far as trying out the old original spring (larger circumference than the "B" repro one) to see if that might influence the repro part to stay in place. Nope. Trust me, I wanted to make the new one work but no way could be convinced that part was going to stay put. |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure what engines got the larger boot and which ones got the smaller boot. My 412 fan shroud takes the larger boot and thus has been PITA to deal with in this area.
You can take a piece of aluminium or galvanized tin and cut a washer from it to fit the smaller boot with a pair of tin snips. Glue the washer to the inside of the shroud with some RTV silicone cleaning the inside of the shroud first with some brake cleaner. |
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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eche_bus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
I am not sure what engines got the larger boot and which ones got the smaller boot. My 412 fan shroud takes the larger boot and thus has been PITA to deal with in this area.
You can take a piece of aluminium or galvanized tin and cut a washer from it to fit the smaller boot with a pair of tin snips. Glue the washer to the inside of the shroud with some RTV silicone cleaning the inside of the shroud first with some brake cleaner. |
I was thinking along this line, but wary of the silicone letting go. If someone here has done this with good longish-term results, I'm willing to seriously consider it. |
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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What are the letters and numbers on your fan housing?
Tcash |
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eche_bus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reference information. So, I know that the hole in my '76 fan shroud is larger than some earlier years and the -"B" suffix part is from that earlier era. The 022 903 655 boot has a round alternator port whereas the 021 903 655 B and D have "D-shaped" alternator port. The -B labeled repro I got has the D-shaped port. So, not the 70A by mistake.
I have the original 021 903 655 D part that came off my shroud. The part number is molded into it so I know exactly what it is. It fits properly and has a larger shroud hole end than the -B repro part. Perhaps the original VW -B part was slightly larger than the repro, allowing it to fit better, I don't know.
Still, there has to be a bunch of guys here with late bays that have replaced their alternator boots with the new repro, right? Tell me, you hypothetical members, did it fit right or not?
Last edited by eche_bus on Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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eche_bus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Tcash wrote: |
What are the letters and numbers on your fan housing?
Tcash |
The engine and fan housing engine #s are the same GD016245. The VW part number cast into the lower end of the shroud face is 021.119.625A. (FWIW, there's a large "6" immediately above the part number, next to the VW logo) |
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Tcash
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Location: San Jose, California, USA
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eche_bus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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That's 022 903 655 Elbow 70A 75-79.
I will contact those potential sources Monday and report back.
I'm skeptical of vwpartsvortex, as I've seen them report things available but when contacted it turns out they have to place an order with VW and THEN find out if it's available. Surely hope to be wrong about that this time.
VWHeritage - what do you think "outlet fits CJ and late AP" means? |
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Tcash
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Location: San Jose, California, USA
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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I would GUESS based what is below that /B is for the 1700 shroud and /D for the 1800 & 2L shroud. VW shows they have stock of the 021 903 655 D part as a CLASSIC PART. This usually means new run or reproduction and not old stock. Everyone who lists the /D is pulling their availability from VW Classic Parts DE. It appears everyone else is selling the /B (Airhead?) part for 1972 1700 - 1979 2L. The question is do you want to spend $30 for a VW part from Germany to find out their reproduction is also a /B?
VagCat says /B is air hose for alternator /1, and /D is air hose for alternator /3 but there is no explanation what those stand for - and there is no motor designation off to the right like 66, 70 etc. I believe that the fiche probably once listed alternators by 1,2,3, etc but since they are NLA only the late 55amp remains. Jerseylooker only lists the /B and shows it for the 66bhp motor which is the 1700. There is one mention elsewhere that /D is 1800 and 2L motor. I did notice that pulley 021-903-109A goes with /1 also, and the pulley 022-903-109A goes with /3 if that is a clue. Bus Boys lists the 021 pulley for 72-74 (1700) and the 022 pulley for 75-79. This confirms that the /B part is for 72-74 1700, and the /D part is for the 1800- 2L motors.
CJ and AP are engine codes. CJ is one of the codes for a 1976> 2L 70 HP motor, and AP is a 1974-1975 1800 code.
| Quote: |
M251 72-73: 1,7-Liter-Motor mit 66 PS CA/CB/CD/CE
74-75: 1,8 Liter mit 68 PS AP/AW/ED
76-: 2,0 Liter mit 70 PS CJ/GD/GE
statt 1.6-Liter-Motor mit 50 PS |
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eche_bus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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I see now ...
GD 1976/77 2000cc
CJ 1976-1979 2000cc - European only
What do you think the difference would be between the GD and CJ engines?
I've emailed both vwspares.ie and vwheritage.com asking for clarification on just what it is they're selling. Am concerned that description "with round outlet" doesn't match the photo. The photo is identical to my 021 903 655 D part with the 'D'-shaped outlet.
But ... it just keeps getting more interesting. Over at Bus Depot, I searched for "021 903 655 D" and this comes up: http://www.busdepot.com/021903655d as Part Reference Number: 021903655D. It's the round outlet boot used for 70A alternators.
It won't surprise me to learn this 70A one is the part that vwspares and vwheritage are showing on their websites.
Hmmm.  |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51113
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Aw crap!, now I've gotta go dig through the shroud stash and measure some holes 
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5687
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| eche_bus wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
I am not sure what engines got the larger boot and which ones got the smaller boot. My 412 fan shroud takes the larger boot and thus has been PITA to deal with in this area.
You can take a piece of aluminium or galvanized tin and cut a washer from it to fit the smaller boot with a pair of tin snips. Glue the washer to the inside of the shroud with some RTV silicone cleaning the inside of the shroud first with some brake cleaner. |
I was thinking along this line, but wary of the silicone letting go. If someone here has done this with good longish-term results, I'm willing to seriously consider it. |
What about a couple rivets to hold it in place?
I get being frustrated at not having the "proper" part but that would probably solve your problems without having to hunt all over.
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1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| eche_bus wrote: |
I see now ...
GD 1976/77 2000cc
CJ 1976-1979 2000cc - European only
What do you think the difference would be between the GD and CJ engines?
I've emailed both vwspares.ie and vwheritage.com asking for clarification on just what it is they're selling. Am concerned that description "with round outlet" doesn't match the photo. The photo is identical to my 021 903 655 D part with the 'D'-shaped outlet.
But ... it just keeps getting more interesting. Over at Bus Depot, I searched for "021 903 655 D" and this comes up: http://www.busdepot.com/021903655d as Part Reference Number: 021903655D. It's the round outlet boot used for 70A alternators.
It won't surprise me to learn this 70A one is the part that vwspares and vwheritage are showing on their websites.
Hmmm. |
You did not need to write VWHeritage. They are selling a VW Part that comes from Classic VW DE. That is a division of VW that sells obsolete parts. When the part is old stock the description usually reads "genuine VW." When the part is a modern reproduction accepted by VW as a replacement it reads, "classic part." The part in question that you want information on is a "Classic Part." You will have to buy one and have it shipped from Germany to know whether it is really any different than the one size fits all that everyone else is selling right now. So, if you are willing to spend $35 to get one to you to test it, please let us know how it fits.
| Tcash wrote: |
ALTERNATOR TYPE IV
55A alternator, VW 021-903-023-A, Bosch 0 120 400 719, Bosch Short AL75X.
70A alternator, VW 021-903-023-E, Bosch 0 120 450 001/002, Bosch Short AL108X.
Voltage Regulator 55A & 70A use the same Regulator 043 903 803 B.
Alternator Wire Harness for AL75X 55A Alt., 1972 to 1977, 021 971 349 F
Alternator Wire Harness for AL75X 55A Alt., 1978 to 1979, 029 971 349 A
Alternator Wire Harness for AL108X 70A Alt. ??????????????????????????
Rebuilt Alternator Shorting Out Type 4
Rebuilt Alternators have been shorting out and frying the Alt. wiring. What is causing this is one of the B+ terminals is too long and is shorting out on the Intake cover.
Resulting in this.
The other B+ can also short out against the Intake cover as well.
The Fix
1. Mount the wires to the Alternator.
2. Use a hacksaw and cut the studs off flush with the mounting nuts.
3. Make a new Intake cover gasket. Illustration 58 #6. I know yours is missing.
4. Replace the protective boot on the B+ wire.
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/9-007.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/9-008.jpg
The type 4 Alternator came in two varieties, 55A & 70A.
55A and 70A Alt. used different Connecting Elbows #42.
55A Elbow 021 903 655 B small hole in fan housing
55A Elbow 021 903 655 D big hole in fan housing
Note: the 55A connection on the cover plate is more oval shaped.
70A Elbow 022 903 655
Note: 70A connection on the cover plate is bigger and round.
Two cover plates used. Early & Late.
Two cover plate gaskets used. Early & Late.
Some info.
That would be one of them. By the looks of it there are two to pick from depending on which alt. cover plate you have. Maybe someone has some pictures of the two different cover plates.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Left=55 amp cover plate. 72-75
Right=55&70 amp cover plate. 76-79
| vw76westy wrote: |
i know that this is the plastic gasket
that gos between the alt and engine tin
but where, how does this gasket go ???
is one for the 55amp and the other for 70amp ??
or does one go behind the other |
| germansupplyscott wrote: |
| the top one is '76-'79, the bottom one is '72-'75. |
022 903 203 Alternator seal
| Quote: |
Karl wrote:
Question: Does anyone know if this is the correct p/n for the tin-seal-ring for an alternator 022-903-203?
Yes, IF you use it with the replacement 022 alt cover plate. The 021 plate used a different plastic seal ring. If memory serves me: the 021 plastic ring has a raised edge on it to fit in the hole. and is NLA. The 022 ring is flat and has a locking 'tab' to hold it in place at the upper adjustment bolt. The big hole is 2 different sizes between the 021 and 022. You cannot mis-match the rings......
From the Bus Boys site:
K. 021-119-281U Alternator Coverplate, Used 1972 to 1974
K. 022-119-281 Alternator Coverplate, New 1972 to 1979
Note: When using the 022-119-281 plate as a replacement on 1972 to 1974 models, the plastic gasket for the Alternator must be replaced with newer style - order 022-903-203. |
72-75
Alternator sealing ring and adjustment cover plate
lostorbit
A couple of NLA parts that are hard to find. Luckily, I scored both from The Samba classifieds.
Part numbers in case you're looking for some:
Alternator Seal - 022 903 203
Adjustment cover plate - 021 119 295
Custom Bus Alternator Coverplate
Elbow, Alternator Air Exhaust, 55amp Alt
Elbow, Alternator Air Exhaust, 70amp Alt
Thanks to Mayor Ratwell
70A Alternators
Alt. Cover Plate (Karl von Salzen)
Alternator cover plate
You need the plastic seal.
022 119 281U Plastic seal 72-74
022-903-203 Plastic seal with new cover plate is 022-903-203
Alternator Sealing Ring Bus '76-'79
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/9-007.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/9-008.jpg
Voltage Regulator 55A & 70A use the same Regulator Prt# 043 903 803 B.
021 971 349 F Wire Harness for AL75X 55A Alternator, 1972 to 1977
029 971 349 A Wire Harness for AL75X 55A Alternator, 1978 to 1979
| busdaddy wrote: |
| Close, the 55A & 70A reg is the same but the harness is different (the end that plugs into the alt.). |
ALTERNATOR BRACKETS
021 256 304 A Alternator Bracket Bus 72-74 & 79
021 256 304 ALTERNATOR BRACKET For T2 75-78
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
You did not need to write VWHeritage. They are selling a VW Part that comes from Classic VW DE. That is a division of VW that sells obsolete parts. When the part is old stock the description usually reads "genuine VW." When the part is a modern reproduction accepted by VW as a replacement it reads, "classic part." The part in question that you want information on is a "Classic Part." |
The VW Vortex site list the boot for $11.63 USD and says it is "This HOSE is a genuine OEM Volkswagen part #021-903-655-D" |
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eche_bus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:20 am Post subject: |
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I just got off the phone with VW Vortex. This /D part, although shown on THEIR website as available, is NOT available through them. This kind of nonsense is why I didn't leap at the chance to call them when they were first mentioned, as just a couple days ago I called them on some hardware their website also showed as available, only to find out it was not. Today the guy explained to me that they are removing the NLA parts only as they are discovered, through orders and calls like mine. If you look at their website now, you will see it marked as DISCONTINUED PART No longer available for purchase.
I see what you mean SGKent about the part showing as valid and available on the Classic VW DE website. It seems much more likely than not that if I ordered the part through them it would be the right one. What throws me is the descriptions on the VWHeritage, VWSpares, AND Bus Depot websites, and I sure as heck wouldn't place an order through them when things don't look right. Still waiting to hear back from VWHeritage and VWSpares emails.
According to the Classic VW DE website, I'm supposed to be able to order these parts through my local dealer. When I called the nearest one, the guy who seemed well-informed and familiar with them said, "oh no we don't have an account with them". When I called the next one, the guy said he'd "check into it and call me back". If no luck, I'll just order online direct later today ... what worries me is not knowing how long it'll take as my fan shroud assembly (and everything that hangs off it) is being held up on this one damn part. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| eche_bus wrote: |
| I just got off the phone with VW Vortex. This /D part, although shown on THEIR website as available, is NOT available through them. This kind of nonsense is why I didn't leap at the chance to call them when they were first mentioned, as just a couple days ago I called them on some hardware their website also showed as available, only to find out it was not. Today the guy explained to me that they are removing the NLA parts only as they are discovered, through orders and calls like mine. If you look at their website now, you will see it marked as DISCONTINUED PART No longer available for purchase. |
Wonder if someone here managed to snap the last one or two up?  |
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