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t0ne321 Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2006 Posts: 119 Location: San Diego, Ca.
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:52 pm Post subject: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons UPDATED W/PICS |
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Hey guys. Long time since I've been around here. So, 2 years ago I built an engine for my beetle. 1955(76x90.5) dual springs Los panchitos heads dual hdmx 40s Weber 120 cam yadda yadda
I used Teflon buttons. Everything ran fine for about 1 month. Plenty of power. Couldn't be happier. Then suddenly I noticed a strange noise coming from the engine. I decided to store the car and just go on about my life. 2 years later I decide to tear it down and this is what I find.
ZERO evidence that there even was buttons in there in the first place. Did they melt away? WTF
So it goes without saying I need new pistons and cylinders. What should be my next course of action. I'm planning on tearing it down completely and clearing out all the pieces of metal from the piston that broke. What caused my buttons to melt away? When it ran, oil pressure was always good and the cylinder heads never got exceedingly hot. (I measured them a few times with an infrared gun.)
So... I probably won't use buttons again. Should I expect a lot of damage to the rest of the engine? My case is full flowed with filter installed. _________________ my 1965 sedan > yo mama.
Last edited by t0ne321 on Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:19 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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"Teflon buttons" don't work with slipper skirt pistons.
But where did the pieces go? |
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t0ne321 Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2006 Posts: 119 Location: San Diego, Ca.
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:29 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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So... I screwed up then? Fuck. I had no idea they didn't work with my setup. Why exactly are they incompatible?
I have no idea where the pieces went. There's nothing left of them. All 8 are completely gone.
I haven't split the case yet, but should I expect everything else to be fine or is my engine most likely trashed? _________________ my 1965 sedan > yo mama.
Last edited by t0ne321 on Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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t0ne321 Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2006 Posts: 119 Location: San Diego, Ca.
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:32 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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at first glance, the connecting rods feel like they have lots of play at the bearing _________________ my 1965 sedan > yo mama. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:21 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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t0ne321 wrote: |
So... I screwed up then? Fuck. I had no idea they didn't work with my setup. Why exactly are they incompatible?
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I expect they would fall out.
The radial play of the bearings is too small to feel, you are probably feeling the "side play". |
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theDrew Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2011 Posts: 1155 Location: Camas, WA
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15280 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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Your Teflon buttons are at the bottom of the case. It would take over a thousand degrees for them to completely evaporate and there would be serious black charing. You would have smelt it long before you heard the clatter. You will find them when you finish tearing the engine apart. There is a good chance your crank is bent from the abuse. I would have it inspected and measured. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Bashr52 Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2006 Posts: 5666 Location: On an island in VA
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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t0ne321 wrote: |
So... I screwed up then? Fuck. I had no idea they didn't work with my setup. Why exactly are they incompatible?
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Teflon buttons keep the pin retained on non-slipper skirt pistons only. If the pin tries to shift and pushes the Teflon against the cylinder wall which retains the pin. On slipper skirts when the pin shifts, there is nothing for the button to push against to keep the pin retained so the buttons fall out, the pin sides over and starts riding on the cylinder wall, which transfers all the combustion forces onto one side of the skirt which snaps it off.
You will find piston chunks scattered all over the inside of the case, as well as little chunks of Teflon from where the buttons got into the rotating assembly and were chewed up. Been there, seen that before...
Inspect and clean, clean, clean! A full flow system should have helped catch some of it... |
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Mikedrevguy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2008 Posts: 2233 Location: Medford, OR
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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Teflon buttons stay in Place because of the pressure between the wrist pin/piston and the cylinder side wall. The slipper skirt does not afford this same pressure.
Don't feel bad, I had to have that thought through for me, too, after I made same mistake. _________________ 74 1303 (RevBug): plan for German Look
76 914 with 2260
79 VW Iltis
69 Bwajaja
"The wise speak because they have something to say; while the foolish speak because they have to say something." Plato
Illigitimi non-Carborundum!! |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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QUESTION!.... Is it because of the space between pin boss and cylinder wall that allows button to drop out...
Dale _________________ Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Howard 111 Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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I always felt the Teflon buttons were very heavy in a place that doesn't need extra weight. I've always liked the spiro-loc or tru-arc. _________________ 1973 Karmann Ghia
Turbocharged, Fuel Injected
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531270 |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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I lighten my buttons so the dont trap oil in the pin adding weight. I like buttons that fall off but not ones in a piston use the oe retainers. you just screw up.live and learn.and pay attn to everything and what it does and it's purpose.just assembling dosent get it as you have found out. |
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slalombuggy Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 9131 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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Dale M. wrote: |
QUESTION!.... Is it because of the space between pin boss and cylinder wall that allows button to drop out...
Dale |
Yes, There is nothing for the button to rest against so it falls out and the pins slide out.
If you use tru-arc clips, make sure you put them in the right way. The gap between the ends should be parallel to the cylinder and the flat side with a bit of an edge that you can feel with your finger should face out so it grabs the piston.
brad |
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t0ne321 Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2006 Posts: 119 Location: San Diego, Ca.
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Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:13 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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Doh.
Yeah I see it now. Well... Damn. Live and learn.
Can't believe I missed that detail. ...I wonder how many other details I missed?
That explains that aweful clacking noise it made. I don't know for how long the engine ran like that.
There's damage to one of the rods on the small end, and the piston opposite of that one, but nothing visual on the rod itself. I'll continue to break it down next week when I get home. Is it possible the rods are bent? _________________ my 1965 sedan > yo mama. |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15280 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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Yes, the rods and the crank could be bent. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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if it's just rods and pistons you one luckey dude.it could of taken out the entire mess and left you with a set of valve covers&sump to reuse. |
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t0ne321 Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2006 Posts: 119 Location: San Diego, Ca.
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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:49 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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So I'm curious about how one goes about checking a crank for straightness. I know you can check the runout with a dial indicator on the center bearing, but is that all that needs to be done to verify the crankshaft? How about the rods? How does one check those? _________________ my 1965 sedan > yo mama. |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:12 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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all the vw rods I have are square for the most part. you can lay them on a serface plate or granite counter top and use a feeler gauge and your eyes to see if both ends are square to each other. not tilted or angled or twisted. thats the easy way ir take to a good machine shop that has the proper equipment.. most bent rods are eazy to spot. and yes the dial indicator on center journal and all other journols is a good check. if there bent then your bank account will need a good checking.as will the case.(realy these are so cheep to build these days rods and crank and pistons isant much at all. $600, witch is about $200 less than Ive paid for some of my v8 pistons alone.and $1800 crower cranks(not the super trick the crower ones) and the billet crower rods.......yes these vws are cheep. but so are the owners yes Im in that club now too. for me it's hard to see spending much more for a old vw thats a 4cyl, and .....makes way less hp. so the butt dyno is less than thrilled,but!!! there still fun and my v8 stuff seems to be too heavy for me to mess with these days. so grin and barrett and getter done. ask all the questions you can think of so you dont have to do this again...ever. and have it ballanced if you didnt. if you cant check it all out send it to hose "A" at DPR. he is honnest and will set you straight. |
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Howard 111 Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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mark tucker wrote: |
"Yes these vws are cheep. but so are the owners." |
The truest statement I've ever seen! Some will destroy a $1,000 part, to save $10 on another. If you want to go fast, and have it last, get the very best of all parts the first time around. Don't wait until the third time around to get the best! _________________ 1973 Karmann Ghia
Turbocharged, Fuel Injected
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531270 |
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mudbucket Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2015 Posts: 34
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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas Teflon buttons |
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You can always use buttons made for slipper skirts
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