Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin
Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
eche_bus
Samba Member


Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
Location: Bloomington, MN
eche_bus is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:21 pm    Post subject: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

For reference. Engine is a '76 GD-code Type 4:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Q1: Which tin should be on top where the left rear (#14) and center rear (#15) tins overlap and screw/bolt together?

Q2: Both the center rear(#15) and right rear(#13) tins have rectangular cutouts along their front edges where they butt up against the shroud. Any idea what these cutouts are for? They don't seem to align with anything. Are they to remain open to allow draining water or something??

Q3: I'm noticing my center rear and right rear tins don't seem to seal at all well against the fan shroud or alternator tin. During disassembly, I found fragments of some kind of thick black tape on the face of the shroud near where the left front face of the center rear tin would sit against the shroud. Maybe about 3 inches long or so. I got the impression some sort of seal was used but there wasn't enough left to tell much at all.
Looking at the diagram above, you'll see a part #19 near the right end of the right rear tin (#13). According to VW, this is p/n 021119543A, a seal 650MM (25.6 inches!!!) long and there are 2 of them used. Does anyone here know about these seals and where they are supposed to go? Please share as much detail as you know.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
notchboy
Samba Member


Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 20130
Location: Escondido CA
notchboy is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

Wow. A new level of anal retentiveness. I joke because I to have faced this diabolical debacle. Only recently when my motor fell over and I had to re do some of these very pieces.

Yet I fail to find the strength to actually get up, go to the garage and see what mysterious path I chose?

Under or over Rolling Eyes


Laughing Laughing
_________________
t3kg wrote:

OK, this thread is over. You win.

Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1974 Westfalia Hardtop Campmobile
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
eche_bus
Samba Member


Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
Location: Bloomington, MN
eche_bus is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

I know you're just razzin' me, but I do want to make it clear this has nothing at all to do with authenticity and everything to do with trying to get my tin to fit and seal properly. The right rear tin was pried on by some gorilla with a screwdriver in the past and I need to get the center and right rear tins properly registered to the engine so I know which way to bend them to get them to sit against each other properly.

Which tin goes on top has a bearing on the angle the center tin sits, and it should be obvious which way is right, but because of the distortion of the right tin and possibly the right end of the center tin, I just can't tell any more.

The questions about the seals and cutouts is my effort to get an idea of what should and should not be sealed. Again, I thought it would be obvious when I put the tins together on the fan shroud, but it is not.

Heck, I could be asking about the right kind of screws to hold this stuff together, but I know better than that. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 42069

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

There was a foam sealing strip used between the tins and the engine originally, IIRC. It may have been used between piece of tin as well. I run beads of silicone in areas where the tin doesn't seal tightly and let it skin over well and then put the pieces together. This makes up for the original gaps along with any abuse the tin has taken over the years. Since the skinned over silicone will typically ooze out in a few places it will lock the tin to the shroud preventing relative movement, noise, and wear.

Without going out and looking I would say that the rear corner tin goes under the center tin. The slot for the one screw is there to make it easy to put the tin in place even with the screw already started.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
busdaddy
Samba Member


Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 43385
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, Land of the giant flying moose!
busdaddy is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

Yes, there was some glued on foam on some seams and against the shroud originally, attached with sloppily applied contact cement like stuff.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Wanted, OG paint 1971 Niagara blue decklid.

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
eche_bus
Samba Member


Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
Location: Bloomington, MN
eche_bus is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

This is a "Before" photo that shows the right and center rear tins in place against the shroud and alternator tins. You can click on the photo to see it a lot bigger.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Q1: Is the reddish goop that looks kind of like spilled strawberry jam the "contact cement like stuff" mentioned? Also, I wonder if that black residue to the left was what was left of the foam seal. When I pulled things apart, it was pretty much just oily goo.

Q2: Was there typically this much of a gap on the right where the alternator tin lip sits below the right tin? I have the original alternator tin and a better replacement and they both seem to intentionally flare out and down away from the right rear tin.

Q3: Back to the slot question posted earlier - is there supposed to be some kind of drainage? This seems contrary to sealing, but that alternator tin gap looks intentional (???)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wasted youth
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 4806
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
Wasted youth is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

I recall asking myself the same question about whether the tin goes on top or under. I went with the roofing shingle concept where any rain getting into the engine bay would flow off the tin and over the seams, not into the seams. And like Wildthings, I use black silicone on any gapped or loose fitting tin. But I was also extremely fortunate to have a bone-stock unmolested engine to play with. All the tin fit nicely. Most of it still had the white stenciled numbers on each piece. Wink

Can we see a pic of the square cutouts? I can't recall seeing those on the '77 I still wish I had.
_________________
1968 Double Cab truck, 1973 Auto trans bus, 1978 Auto trans Sunroof bus with A/C and a 1987 Auto trans Westfalia.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
notchboy
Samba Member


Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 20130
Location: Escondido CA
notchboy is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

I know all in good fun Wink I appreciate the level of detail when refinishing anything on old VW's. These little nuances get lost and are fun to back through and try to recreate.

My tin is sweet and perfect. It was also unmolested before I tore it apart. Ill have a closer look at my before pics and what it is now.
_________________
t3kg wrote:

OK, this thread is over. You win.

Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1974 Westfalia Hardtop Campmobile
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
eche_bus
Samba Member


Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
Location: Bloomington, MN
eche_bus is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

I've been able to find one other "before" photo that shows the center tin in place under the left piece, which agrees with Wasted youth's shingle metaphor. The heat shield leg also seems to sit best against the left flange of the center tin as well.

I would still like to be able to compare with others (thanks, notchboy) so as to know for sure, as my bus originally had A/C and the compressor was removed and replaced with a hack tin patch by a P.O. I don't know that what remained of the original left tin was still in its original place.

Back to the rectangular cutout question. VW didn't put them there as decoration, and I'd really like to figure out if they should remain open or be sealed up. I've seen nothing to suggest they were added by a previous owner and they don't appear to align with any mechanical features. Here's a photo:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
notchboy
Samba Member


Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 20130
Location: Escondido CA
notchboy is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

Are there any fundamental differences in the slide-slot the tin rests in? Mine pictured is for 74. Maybe later tin has to accommodate the channels you show?



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
t3kg wrote:

OK, this thread is over. You win.

Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1974 Westfalia Hardtop Campmobile
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
eche_bus
Samba Member


Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
Location: Bloomington, MN
eche_bus is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

notchboy wrote:
Are there any fundamental differences in the slide-slot the tin rests in? Mine pictured is for 74. Maybe later tin has to accommodate the channels you show?

I don't see any differences between our shrouds with respect to the "ledge" or "slide slot" that the tin sits on you've highlighted in red.

What are you referring to as the channels - are you referring to the tin forward edge cutouts? I'd posted that the cutouts in my last photo don't correspond to any mechanical features that I can see. Does your tin not have these cutouts?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
whatdoesthisbuttondo?
Samba Member


Joined: April 05, 2012
Posts: 241
Location: Victoria
whatdoesthisbuttondo? is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

I've got my center tin over on left, under on right. 73 dual carb. Might have done it wrong but didn't seem to make a huge difference to fit, in general it all took a bit of finessing. Ran bead of black silicone between as above.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1973 Campervan. Stock 1700. Dual Solex carbs. Pertronix electronic points on distributor (stock, not a 009). Engine rebuilt in October 2016.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Amskeptic
Samba Member


Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8470
Location: All Across The Country
Amskeptic is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

eche_bus wrote:

I do want to make it clear this has nothing at all to do with authenticity and everything to do with trying to get my tin to fit and seal properly.


The two go hand-in-hand. You knew I'd say that.

Left 14 followed by center 15, followed by right tin. It all falls in place when it falls in place. There is a proprietary technique to rotating the right tin once it is over the oil fill pipe so it slips into place. I sure hope this is right,

You know you have to lay the muffler shield down before fitting those tins, then get the left side of the shield lined up with 14/15 sandwich, then the right side is not so annoying to line up from underneath.
Colin
_________________
www.itinerant-air-cooled.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
busdaddy
Samba Member


Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 43385
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, Land of the giant flying moose!
busdaddy is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

I've wondered about the notches myself and can find no logical use for them, possibly another part gets punched out from the same sheet and infringes on a non critical area of the blank for that component?
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Wanted, OG paint 1971 Niagara blue decklid.

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
eche_bus
Samba Member


Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
Location: Bloomington, MN
eche_bus is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

Amskeptic wrote:
eche_bus wrote:

I do want to make it clear this has nothing at all to do with authenticity and everything to do with trying to get my tin to fit and seal properly.


The two go hand-in-hand. You knew I'd say that.

Left 14 followed by center 15, followed by right tin. It all falls in place when it falls in place. There is a proprietary technique to rotating the right tin once it is over the oil fill pipe so it slips into place. I sure hope this is right,

You know you have to lay the muffler shield down before fitting those tins, then get the left side of the shield lined up with 14/15 sandwich, then the right side is not so annoying to line up from underneath.
Colin

Hi Colin,

I appreciate your help here! So left is on top, center below it. Got it. And if I understand correctly, it's important the shield foot is under the 14/15 sandwich so the angle of the 15 piece is correct and allows the right tin to sit correctly.

Do you know anything about where these tins were originally sealed and what the rectangular cutouts in the tin are for? Is the cutout in the right tin + the way it sits (big gap below) against the alternator face tin there to act as a drain or ???
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
eche_bus
Samba Member


Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
Location: Bloomington, MN
eche_bus is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
I've wondered about the notches myself and can find no logical use for them, possibly another part gets punched out from the same sheet and infringes on a non critical area of the blank for that component?


Quite possible there's no function, but I just gotta wonder why the right tin's notch sits about where the big gap between the alternator and right tin begins. Look again at this "before" photo. Why would the alternator tin's horizontal flange bend down and away from the right tin? I have two alt. tins and they're both shaped like this!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Amskeptic
Samba Member


Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8470
Location: All Across The Country
Amskeptic is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

eche_bus wrote:


Do you know anything about where these tins were originally sealed and what the rectangular cutouts in the tin are for?


White caulk between right and center tin, white caulk sparingly applied to alternator face plate against fan housing, and a light caulk line along fan housing for left tin.

Cutout, as best I can tell is indeed a necessary drain for whatever air scoop water ingestion occurs or oil from sloppy fills. These tins all fit beautifully on the BobD, I gotta tell you. All hell breaks loose in a heartbeat the instant you have a backwards overlap or an annoyed disassembler.
Colin
_________________
www.itinerant-air-cooled.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
NASkeet
Samba Member


Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2266
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
NASkeet is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: Three questions about Type 4 rear engine tin Reply with quote

notchboy wrote:
Are there any fundamental differences in the slide-slot the tin rests in? Mine pictured is for 74. Maybe later tin has to accommodate the channels you show?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That fan housing looks like the strange North American specification fan housing, with integral brackets for mounting an air pump, which was reputed to be something to do with exhaust emissions!?!
_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB