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TinCanFab Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 2743 Location: Waterford, California
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:46 am Post subject: EFI air bleed? |
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Hey guys, I've got a question about my EFI setup. Do I need, or should I incorporate a way to bleed the air out of the lines? I'm familiar with fučl injection, but I've never installed a system that I've made from scratch. I'm getting fuel pressure, no leaks but a ton of gurgling and squeeking noises coming from only the regulator. I changed the spin on filter and allowed the tank to drain out of it all the way to the pump inlet. Then I connected to the pump. Do I just run the engine until air goes away?
The regulator is the highest point in the system, but sounds like a whoopie cushion every 10 seconds or so.
I have the return line routed back to the fuel inlet instead of dumping into the top of the tank.
The gauge bounces around when I hear the gurgling but mostly stays around 40 psi. _________________ Check out my truck brought back from the dead... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=420762&highlight=sprayed+blood
They're never really ever finished 58 rag build...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658092 |
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mikedjames Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012 Posts: 2743 Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:22 am Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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"I have the return line routed back to the fuel inlet instead of dumping into the top of the tank. "
So the air just runs around.
Look at swirl pots and running a low pressure loop throuh the pot
or simply dup the hot aerated fuel back into the tank.
Otherwise your burps and squeaks may end up with boiled fuel instead and no FI until it all cools down.
The choice of how to return fuel to the tank is one thing stalling my FI project. _________________ Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy |
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fastfil Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2006 Posts: 356 Location: Sunshine Coast, AUS
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:58 am Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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The injectors should run a priming pulse when you turn the ignition on. This should purge any small amounts of air out. If its a new motor, you might just need to turn it off and on a few times. _________________ "...swingaxle...transaxle...same diff." |
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TinCanFab Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 2743 Location: Waterford, California
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Boolean Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012 Posts: 1712 Location: Stockholm
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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mikedjames wrote: |
"I have the return line routed back to the fuel inlet instead of dumping into the top of the tank. "
So the air just runs around. |
This. _________________ I strive for perfection. Excellence will not be tolerated!
Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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gprudenciop Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008 Posts: 606 Location: portland or
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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i ran it like you did. no problems. it will go away once you purge out the air the first time.nothing wrong with running a tee instead of returning to tank. _________________ Never look down at anybody unless you are helping them up..
Loaning someone your strength instead of reminding them of their weakness = kindness.. |
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Boolean Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012 Posts: 1712 Location: Stockholm
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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There is a reason all manufacturers run an extra hose back to the tank.
I will likely work most of the time anyway, but not well enough to sell new cars. _________________ I strive for perfection. Excellence will not be tolerated!
Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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mcmscott Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010 Posts: 4858 Location: sanger ca
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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I had a system like that, burned up 2 pumps. There is a reason factory efi systems return in the top of the tank _________________ There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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gprudenciop Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008 Posts: 606 Location: portland or
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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and there are also new cars that dont return at all. i guess they are wrong too. alot of people including myself have run it this way without problems. if it idles ok than it should be fine becouse thats when you get the most return. the more rpm the less return. _________________ Never look down at anybody unless you are helping them up..
Loaning someone your strength instead of reminding them of their weakness = kindness.. |
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Boolean Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012 Posts: 1712 Location: Stockholm
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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So, some undiscosed manufacturer runs without return. This is interesting, I would like to know more about this.
The rest of us should clearly do it as well, because those who burned pumps and suffered from hard starting with warm engines simply dont know what they are doing. _________________ I strive for perfection. Excellence will not be tolerated!
Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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gprudenciop Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008 Posts: 606 Location: portland or
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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You're probably familiar with "return-type" fuel injection systems, but have you worked on a "returnless" system?
Returnless systems are found on many late model cars and trucks. The first ones appeared back in 1993 on certain Chrysler V6 and V8 truck engines. By 1998, all Chrysler cars and light trucks had them. In 1996, Toyota introduced its first returnless system, followed by General Motors and Ford in 1999. Honda went "returnless" in 2001, and today you'll find returnless fuel injection systems on almost all new vehicles.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/returnless_efi.htm _________________ Never look down at anybody unless you are helping them up..
Loaning someone your strength instead of reminding them of their weakness = kindness.. |
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Boolean Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012 Posts: 1712 Location: Stockholm
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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I read through the link you provided. Interesting stuff. But as expected, those systems serve the purpose to solve a problem few of us are concerned about - namely emission control.
In order to make this work they have to raise fuel pressure to avoid vapor buildup in the lines.
I have never worked on newer tech like this, and still fail to see any relevance to us. _________________ I strive for perfection. Excellence will not be tolerated!
Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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gprudenciop Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008 Posts: 606 Location: portland or
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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So you just want to argue. well my dad can kick your dads ass!!!
next up religion!! _________________ Never look down at anybody unless you are helping them up..
Loaning someone your strength instead of reminding them of their weakness = kindness.. |
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Boolean Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012 Posts: 1712 Location: Stockholm
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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No, advocating returnless fuel injection with older tech pumps and regulators is bad advice. The fact that more modern systems use this with completely different hardware is no reason for us to do it.
Experimenting should be encouraged, but this forum supply advice to people who need help on their builds.
Saying that a return is not necessary without also saying that you need a special pump/regulator/software is not nice. _________________ I strive for perfection. Excellence will not be tolerated!
Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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gprudenciop Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008 Posts: 606 Location: portland or
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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ok ok you caught me i was advocating returneless fuel injection. dang nothing gets by you. _________________ Never look down at anybody unless you are helping them up..
Loaning someone your strength instead of reminding them of their weakness = kindness.. |
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gprudenciop Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008 Posts: 606 Location: portland or
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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before you reply. you win! everything you say should be followed to a tee... _________________ Never look down at anybody unless you are helping them up..
Loaning someone your strength instead of reminding them of their weakness = kindness.. |
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Boolean Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012 Posts: 1712 Location: Stockholm
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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Very clever conclusion. It has nothing to do with the discussion, but hey - we can't have everything. _________________ I strive for perfection. Excellence will not be tolerated!
Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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gprudenciop Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008 Posts: 606 Location: portland or
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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there is more than one way to skin a cat. why you would want to skin a cat is beyond me! i prefer woking the dog..... _________________ Never look down at anybody unless you are helping them up..
Loaning someone your strength instead of reminding them of their weakness = kindness.. |
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TinCanFab Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 2743 Location: Waterford, California
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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Hey now....
I tried to research the pros/cons of the different returns before I set it up. The main reason I did it this way was the single cab tank placement. It was also easier to plumb into the existing tank drain. I'm using a fuel cell with no baffling so it seemed this method would keep air out of the drain while fuel sloshes around.
I've read that some guys feel the return in the top of the tank aerates the fuel? I tried to keep the lines away from heat and even made the rails out of steel to lessen the impact of heat soak. You can see I even used a Y fitting instead of a regular tee since some guys said the CB system's tee was no good... Hmmmmm...I went overkill on the tubing and hose sizes and used AN to keep flow restriction to a minimum. The pump volume is also ridiculous for my hp level, but that's how I roll. Overkilling the hell out of everything I build lately. carry on _________________ Check out my truck brought back from the dead... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=420762&highlight=sprayed+blood
They're never really ever finished 58 rag build...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658092 |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4027 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: EFI air bleed? |
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I have almost 12,000 miles on my FI turbo with a fuel tank tee.
I have not had any issue with fuel.......except I am now at 94% duty cycle on my 32# injectors at 22 lbs boost........
_________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
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That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
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