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SloFloSyncro
Samba Member
Joined: June 16, 2010
Posts: 80
Location: Oceanside, CA
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 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:09 pm Post subject: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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| Many of the established big disc brake kits won't work with the Rhein 15" wheels. What set-up/modifications have you done to put bigger discs on your rig? |
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greebly
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2009
Posts: 966
Location: Here and now
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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| I have the Rheins and South African big brake kit which uses Merkur Scorpio and XR4Ti pads. |
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wesitarz
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2012
Posts: 1491
Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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| What about a rear disc option? Do the SC or Burley rear disc kits not fit? |
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davevickery
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Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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| SloFloSyncro wrote: |
| Many of the established big disc brake kits won't work with the Rhein 15" wheels. What set-up/modifications have you done to put bigger discs on your rig? |
The kits I am aware of are GW proprietary version, Eurospec Sport Audi single piston ones and Small Car Audi Dual piston ones.
I think only the small car ones don't fit Rheins from what I have read. 15" steel wheels are often a problem. The GW kit is the smallest and fits all 15" wheels I think. YMMV but here is a confirming post below regarding Eurospec and Rheins.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7410420
I have the Eurospec Sport kit on my syncro and it is o.k. but I might just put the money into rebuilding stock brakes if I had to do it again. Or go all the way and replace the master cylinder and or brake booster too. Brake feel isn't any better but heat/fade resistance is way better. Rotors needed a tiny bit of clearancing of outside edge with a hand grinder. They just touched caliper when the rotors heated up and expanded. I think SmallCar's provide the best braking power of those 3 choices but pretty sure they won't fit Rheins. |
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ThankYouJerry
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Joined: September 01, 2012
Posts: 2271
Location: Shakedown Street
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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| davevickery wrote: |
| ...Or go all the way and replace the master cylinder and or brake booster too. Brake feel isn't any better but heat/fade resistance is way better. Rotors needed a tiny bit of clearancing with a hand grinder. I think SmallCar's provide the best braking power of those 3 choices but pretty sure they won't fit Rheins. |
An upgraded (BMW) booster should provide better brake feel, but not necessarily better brake performance.
FWIW... I have GW's "Bigger Brake Kit" (Gen 2) on my Westy with 15" VC "Carrot Alloys". The bigger front brakes are indeed a noticeable improvement, however, in the next month I'm also adding Burley's rear disc brake kit. Nothing is going to improve braking performance on a Westy more than 4 wheel disc brakes.
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wesitarz
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2012
Posts: 1491
Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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| ThankYouJerry wrote: |
| davevickery wrote: |
| ...Or go all the way and replace the master cylinder and or brake booster too. Brake feel isn't any better but heat/fade resistance is way better. Rotors needed a tiny bit of clearancing with a hand grinder. I think SmallCar's provide the best braking power of those 3 choices but pretty sure they won't fit Rheins. |
An upgraded (BMW) booster should provide better brake feel, but not necessarily better brake performance.
FWIW... I have GW's "Bigger Brake Kit" (Gen 2) on my Westy with 15" VC "Carrot Alloys". The bigger front brakes are indeed a noticeable improvement, however, in the next month I'm also adding Burley's rear disc brake kit. Nothing is going to improve braking performance on a Westy more than 4 wheel disc brakes. |
I added Smallcar's rear disc to my stock front discs and it worked OK for several years with the stock MC and booster. Could have replaced rotors,pads and rebuilt front calipers + added 2 psi residual valves and I think it would have made an improvement.
Always wanted bigger front brakes so I put in an older (new) Van Cafe big brake kit (Audi A4B5 with 288 rotor) that I got second hand and this changed the pedal travel. New stock ATE MC, BMW bigger booster and stiffer brass caliper guides (to take care of the excessive caliper flex with the A4B5) and I can feel the brakes grab,but the pedal does not get stiff. I think more caliper area exceeds the capacity of the stock MC. I still have to check that the calipers aren't sticking. My next fix will be adding 2 psi residual valves and possibly going to a larger Wilwood MC (1 1/8") maybe,depending on the caliper piston area calculation.
I still have my stock front brakes and new rotors/pads just in case.
IMO the front big brake kit with stock rear drums +/- a bigger brake booster might be the best option. Next maybe rear disc with stock front disc. (but I am no expert)
Last edited by wesitarz on Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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SloFloSyncro
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Joined: June 16, 2010
Posts: 80
Location: Oceanside, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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| Thanks guys, looking for a setup for my front brakes. SC, GW don't work with the Rheins, and Burley is offering rear discs. I have the BMW booster, and love it, just wanted to reduce fade potential since I've got a 1.8t, and like to run it off road. |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
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Location: Brookeville, MD
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geodude
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Joined: May 24, 2012
Posts: 372
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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I have the Eurospec kit and it does improve fade resistance greatly, but a FYI for everyone they have been shipping this kit with the ATE54 calipers not the ATE57 as they had been before. The good new is the ATE57 calipers will slide onto the same carriers that come with the kit. Why the change? Who knows, they probably had a bunch in stock that they wanted to get rid of is my guess.
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dobryan
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Posts: 16504
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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| geodude wrote: |
| I have the Eurospec kit and it does improve fade resistance greatly, but a FYI for everyone they have been shipping this kit with the ATE54 calipers not the ATE57 as they had been before. The good new is the ATE57 calipers will slide onto the same carriers that come with the kit. Why the change? Who knows, they probably had a bunch in stock that they wanted to get rid of is my guess. |
So Eurospec says they will not fit under the Rheins. Are they being overly cautious? I'd love to install something like this.
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'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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16CVs 
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2004
Posts: 4025
Location: Redwood City, California
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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I am running G57s on my Syncro with Rheins. The adapters were made by Small car years ago. They are crude and easily duplicated once you see them.
I bought the whole kit from a guy who sold them as a G60s ,before I knew the difference. They work great and I believe use the same bolts holes as a G60 ,The rotor is way bigger and thicker giving less brake fade and a better pedal along with VC SS lines and GW Finned rear drums and OE shoes my van stops with out the white knuckle it used to have.
Stacy
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Jeff's Old Volks Home
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Joined: December 19, 2011
Posts: 819
Location: Chester Basin, Nova Scotia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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G60 twin piston Calipers with 12mm spacers, and 280mm rotors all from an Audi 5000Q turbo era 1990 will work. It's tight, and there's no room for stick on wheel weights on the inside of the rim. But it does, for sure work just fine with the 15" Rhein wheel.
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burleymotorsports
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Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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| wesitarz wrote: |
| What about a rear disc option? Do the SC or Burley rear disc kits not fit? |
Burley Motorsports rear disc brake kits fit nicely under Rhiens.
As far as front kits that work with Rhien wheels , here is what I have found with hands on experience in my shop :
Euro spec front kit:
will work if you grind down the outside of the caliper in the places where it rubs , this all depends on the individual caliper casting . However for those that dont know , be aware that these kits are plagued with spongy pedal issues with this kit. Will fit with SA steel 16'' wheels with no issues.
SC front kit :
is really tight , will work but requires grinding on the outside of the caliper body to clear the wheel.
Will not fit with 16'' Mefro's ,
Will fit with 16'' SA steel wheels with no issues.
South African kit :
, no issues , not a radical upgrade but I still consider it a nice upgrade from stock.
To my knowledge this kits fits all of the above wheels without issues.
Hope this helps , Burley
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dobryan
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SloFloSyncro
Samba Member
Joined: June 16, 2010
Posts: 80
Location: Oceanside, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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| Thanks Stacy, Jeff and Burley, some solid info to work with! |
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geodude
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Joined: May 24, 2012
Posts: 372
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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I'll 2nd what Burely said, the Eurospec kit was spongy as can be when first installed. The calipers were not sitting square with the disks and the calipers had to move further than normal to get full contact of the pads. Once figured out and adjusted to fit square all was good, but definitely a pain in the rear (or front as the case may be). But, since my wife bought them for me as a gift I'm not going to complain.
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dobryan
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wesitarz
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Joined: August 20, 2012
Posts: 1491
Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| What did you have to do to get things squared up? |
I used this kit for the A4B5 G57s:
Helps a lot with the caliper flex from those crappy rubber slide bushings and fiddled with the spring retainer. Still have some pad retraction on the driver's side,none on the pass side. Don't know if this is the caliper sticking or if it needs a 2lb residual valve. Need to do more testing when I get back from winter vacation. Also the driver's side caliper has grooves to grip the outside pad (which were overpainted) and the passenger side does not have any grooves and I am getting some pad 'clicking' on that side. |
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geodude
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Posts: 372
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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Its been a while so this may be wrong / incomplete, but I remember having to slightly adjust the position of the carrier as it was riding up onto the spindle outside of the machined flat mounting location when first bolted on. The only way I really figured it out was sighting along the disk and seeing a bit of light getting by the pad to disk contact. More light came though on one end of the contact indicating it wasn't meeting squarely. It didn't take much to make the brakes feel spongy. It really was a loosen bolts, tap into position and re-tighten affair from what I remember (after messing around with other things for awhile trying to get the sponginess to go away).
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davevickery
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Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brakes for Rhein 15" Wheels |
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Can you guys help me with this. Does spongy mean it feels like air in there, more like stepping on a rubber ball, or does it mean the brakes need an extra pump of the pedal to get them to really grab?
Mine does not feel like air, and I bled the brakes a few times and think I have all the air out of the system after making a pressure bleeder. The first pedal feels almost as firm as the second quick pump, but it goes down further on the first push of the pedal, a quick second pump and the brakes feel awesome. It stops better if I do a pump-pump vs. just once.
Trying to figure out if the above readjustment of the caliper might help. Or what to try next.
Thanks, Dave |
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