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hobgoodhobgood
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:33 am    Post subject: Type 3 vw modulator substitute? Reply with quote

hey been member for a while, first forum to start... I know the 003 transmissions are a pain to work on and hard to find parts for.. I currently have one in the transmission shop and I am looking for certain parts. "the pump shaft" is said to need replacing and of course the modulator is bad. I have all other parts for rebuild which was interesting enough to locate... on the modulator I cant help but notice in my searching for it, how similar it looks compared to early ford models, and some on the audi 4000 ... has anyone ever substituted other models modulators for their 003?
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ddare
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: type 3 vw modulator substitute? Reply with quote

I broke a pump shaft a few years back and the only way I could get a replacement was to get a transmission from a junk car. Luckily I was able to get one for around $75.

If that shaft is broken, there's a good chance the oil pump is toast as well. The shaft can punch right through the back of the oil pump as there's nothing to stop it (this is what happens when you bolt the TC to the drive plate instead of putting it inside the transmission first, and then mating the two).

I still have the broken pump shaft; the end of it broke off where it connects transmission oil pump is what broke (about 1/4" in length).

As to the vacuum modulators, you can get new ones in the full rebuild kit. I see the same kit advertised for the Audi Fox/VW Dasher so I would imagine it to be the same P/N.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagon-003-Automatic-T...1145910315
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: type 3 vw modulator substitute? Reply with quote

ddare wrote:
I broke a pump shaft a few years back and the only way I could get a replacement was to get a transmission from a junk car. Luckily I was able to get one for around $75.

If that shaft is broken, there's a good chance the oil pump is toast as well. The shaft can punch right through the back of the oil pump as there's nothing to stop it (this is what happens when you bolt the TC to the drive plate instead of putting it inside the transmission first, and then mating the two).

I still have the broken pump shaft; the end of it broke off where it connects transmission oil pump is what broke (about 1/4" in length).

As to the vacuum modulators, you can get new ones in the full rebuild kit. I see the same kit advertised for the Audi Fox/VW Dasher so I would imagine it to be the same P/N.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagon-003-Automatic-T...1145910315



Actually modulators are specific to valve body AND...the valve body is set up for the governor used. There were more than one valve body.

Just in the type 4 car factory parts catalog in the type 003 transmission section....there are two part #'s

003 325 391 B Marked with Blue paint and set to be used with governor part # 003 325 029 D

003 325 391 C marked with brown paint and set to be used with governor
part # 003 325 029 F

Oddly...they also have a note that I dont know how to decipher.

The 003 325 391 B/003 325 029 D combo has a code to the right on the page.... 003:5

The other combo says .... 003:8

I have no idea yet what that means. BUT....other notes from "without guesswork"...show that for type 3 (not type 4)...any trans using the valve body with letter code "D" from August 71 and on...should use 45.5 psi for primary throttle pressure when adjusting

And for the 003 in type 4 cars....from August 1973 and on...all listed values in the column for primary throttle pressure and main pressure....which are different from type 3 are also used on earlier "D" code valve bodies when used in type 4 cars.

This does not mean that they cannot be used in a mix and match fashion.....but they will need to to be adjusted with driving and the gauge set connected. And...i have no idea if both modulators are exactly the same in adjusting range or vacuum sensitivity.

Ray
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ddare
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: type 3 vw modulator substitute? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
ddare wrote:
I broke a pump shaft a few years back and the only way I could get a replacement was to get a transmission from a junk car. Luckily I was able to get one for around $75.

If that shaft is broken, there's a good chance the oil pump is toast as well. The shaft can punch right through the back of the oil pump as there's nothing to stop it (this is what happens when you bolt the TC to the drive plate instead of putting it inside the transmission first, and then mating the two).

I still have the broken pump shaft; the end of it broke off where it connects transmission oil pump is what broke (about 1/4" in length).

As to the vacuum modulators, you can get new ones in the full rebuild kit. I see the same kit advertised for the Audi Fox/VW Dasher so I would imagine it to be the same P/N.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagon-003-Automatic-T...1145910315



Actually modulators are specific to valve body AND...the valve body is set up for the governor used. There were more than one valve body.

Just in the type 4 car factory parts catalog in the type 003 transmission section....there are two part #'s

003 325 391 B Marked with Blue paint and set to be used with governor part # 003 325 029 D

003 325 391 C marked with brown paint and set to be used with governor
part # 003 325 029 F

Oddly...they also have a note that I dont know how to decipher.

The 003 325 391 B/003 325 029 D combo has a code to the right on the page.... 003:5

The other combo says .... 003:8

I have no idea yet what that means. BUT....other notes from "without guesswork"...show that for type 3 (not type 4)...any trans using the valve body with letter code "D" from August 71 and on...should use 45.5 psi for primary throttle pressure when adjusting

And for the 003 in type 4 cars....from August 1973 and on...all listed values in the column for primary throttle pressure and main pressure....which are different from type 3 are also used on earlier "D" code valve bodies when used in type 4 cars.

This does not mean that they cannot be used in a mix and match fashion.....but they will need to to be adjusted with driving and the gauge set connected. And...i have no idea if both modulators are exactly the same in adjusting range or vacuum sensitivity.

Ray


Thanks for the correction, Ray. I was hoping you would share your knowledge before someone could act on my erroneous advice Smile

To the OP, I have a spare auto trans pulled from a '71 Squareback I would be happy to pull the modulator from and send to you. Theres only a couple in the classifieds and the prices seem pretty high to me. $20 and its yours. Untested but I assume to work. If you're interested, let me know.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: type 3 vw modulator substitute? Reply with quote

I'm not saying not to buy whatever modulator you might be able to get that is physically the same size and shape. They have been in short supply for some time.

Just be aware that whoever does the driving and adjustment tests.....not knowing what internal characteristics the modulator has.....you may need to try several settings for main and throttle pressure to get it right. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: type 3 vw modulator substitute? Reply with quote

When I got my 73 SB auto trans the car did not want to shift into third . I had gone over the original engine and it ran great . The modulator that came stock on this Calif build car FI engine had a larger diameter and no adjustment at all .

The fellow who worked at the ford dealer with me at that time and he did the trans work spoke to someone he knew at a chain trans repair shop and brought me two modulators smaller with an adjustment one allen one a slot head screw . He told me just put it in and drive it to see then to get it into third back off a 1/4 turn until it shifts into third . I did that and it's been working fine since this was 86 . I had to rebuild the trans so I used the one from a 72 I had all cleaned but I used the 73 valve body and didn't touch the govenor on the transaxle . I still used the same modulator and it worked fine. The 72 had already the adjustable type . I never tried the others. Kept them just in case.

I'm not saying you should not check the pressures if you can , I'm just saying what worked for me. I don't think you can hurt anything doing a self adjust /drive and see . I would see how it shifts and get close to the shift points in the Bentley as long as it shifts into each gear and advances to the next not to soon or to late you should be good. The original modulator didn't affect 1st to 2nd just going into third and the adjustable one I used didn't affect 1st to 2nd either. I know if you leave the vacuum line off it will slam into gear , ask me how I know this. Also as you know how much load is on or how much throttle applied will shift it sooner or later , the original modulator would once in a while go into third if I backed off the throttle . Even now at times if I want third sooner I back off on the throttle a bit and it goes into third , yet if I drive normal it will go into third at about 40 MPH. I just keep in in 2nd unless I'm able to do 40 around here with the traffic.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:38 am    Post subject: Re: type 3 vw modulator substitute? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
ddare wrote:
I broke a pump shaft a few years back and the only way I could get a replacement was to get a transmission from a junk car. Luckily I was able to get one for around $75.

If that shaft is broken, there's a good chance the oil pump is toast as well. The shaft can punch right through the back of the oil pump as there's nothing to stop it (this is what happens when you bolt the TC to the drive plate instead of putting it inside the transmission first, and then mating the two).

I still have the broken pump shaft; the end of it broke off where it connects transmission oil pump is what broke (about 1/4" in length).

As to the vacuum modulators, you can get new ones in the full rebuild kit. I see the same kit advertised for the Audi Fox/VW Dasher so I would imagine it to be the same P/N.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagon-003-Automatic-T...1145910315



Actually modulators are specific to valve body AND...the valve body is set up for the governor used. There were more than one valve body.

Just in the type 4 car factory parts catalog in the type 003 transmission section....there are two part #'s

003 325 391 B Marked with Blue paint and set to be used with governor part # 003 325 029 D

003 325 391 C marked with brown paint and set to be used with governor
part # 003 325 029 F

Oddly...they also have a note that I dont know how to decipher.

The 003 325 391 B/003 325 029 D combo has a code to the right on the page.... 003:5

The other combo says .... 003:8

I have no idea yet what that means. BUT....other notes from "without guesswork"...show that for type 3 (not type 4)...any trans using the valve body with letter code "D" from August 71 and on...should use 45.5 psi for primary throttle pressure when adjusting

And for the 003 in type 4 cars....from August 1973 and on...all listed values in the column for primary throttle pressure and main pressure....which are different from type 3 are also used on earlier "D" code valve bodies when used in type 4 cars.

This does not mean that they cannot be used in a mix and match fashion.....but they will need to to be adjusted with driving and the gauge set connected. And...i have no idea if both modulators are exactly the same in adjusting range or vacuum sensitivity.

Ray


There's actually 4 VM's for type 3s, one is for 68 up thru 70 with FI, and one for 68 up thru 70 with carbs (home market or Euro models). Then there's the 71 thru 73 with FI, and 71 thru 73 with carbs.
Remember, not every country got FI on a type 3 from 68 thru the end of production.
I don't have the VM numbers for the carb versions, due to not being able to access it on my computer (it's having a stupid moment at the moment Rolling Eyes ). Like Tram keeps mentioning every so often, you could even get a single carb thru to the end of production.
Jim Adney also tells us that carb VM's are set up differently from the FI versions. This means you're supposed to readjust an FI VM when you change it to carbs, or find a carbbed version to install.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: type 3 vw modulator substitute? Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
ddare wrote:
I broke a pump shaft a few years back and the only way I could get a replacement was to get a transmission from a junk car. Luckily I was able to get one for around $75.

If that shaft is broken, there's a good chance the oil pump is toast as well. The shaft can punch right through the back of the oil pump as there's nothing to stop it (this is what happens when you bolt the TC to the drive plate instead of putting it inside the transmission first, and then mating the two).

I still have the broken pump shaft; the end of it broke off where it connects transmission oil pump is what broke (about 1/4" in length).

As to the vacuum modulators, you can get new ones in the full rebuild kit. I see the same kit advertised for the Audi Fox/VW Dasher so I would imagine it to be the same P/N.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagon-003-Automatic-T...1145910315



Actually modulators are specific to valve body AND...the valve body is set up for the governor used. There were more than one valve body.

Just in the type 4 car factory parts catalog in the type 003 transmission section....there are two part #'s

003 325 391 B Marked with Blue paint and set to be used with governor part # 003 325 029 D

003 325 391 C marked with brown paint and set to be used with governor
part # 003 325 029 F

Oddly...they also have a note that I dont know how to decipher.

The 003 325 391 B/003 325 029 D combo has a code to the right on the page.... 003:5

The other combo says .... 003:8

I have no idea yet what that means. BUT....other notes from "without guesswork"...show that for type 3 (not type 4)...any trans using the valve body with letter code "D" from August 71 and on...should use 45.5 psi for primary throttle pressure when adjusting

And for the 003 in type 4 cars....from August 1973 and on...all listed values in the column for primary throttle pressure and main pressure....which are different from type 3 are also used on earlier "D" code valve bodies when used in type 4 cars.

This does not mean that they cannot be used in a mix and match fashion.....but they will need to to be adjusted with driving and the gauge set connected. And...i have no idea if both modulators are exactly the same in adjusting range or vacuum sensitivity.

Ray


There's actually 4 VM's for type 3s, one is for 68 up thru 70 with FI, and one for 68 up thru 70 with carbs (home market or Euro models). Then there's the 71 thru 73 with FI, and 71 thru 73 with carbs.
Remember, not every country got FI on a type 3 from 68 thru the end of production.
I don't have the VM numbers for the carb versions, due to not being able to access it on my computer (it's having a stupid moment at the moment Rolling Eyes ). Like Tram keeps mentioning every so often, you could even get a single carb thru to the end of production.
Jim Adney also tells us that carb VM's are set up differently from the FI versions. This means you're supposed to readjust an FI VM when you change it to carbs, or find a carbbed version to install.


Yes....yoou are spot on. I only have the limited automatic trans data that my texts show...which are mostly type 4 centric (the factory parts list) and all four types in the "without guesswork" book.

But even from those...its clear that there are early and late, carb and fuel injection versions and more in the pipe than just what is listed....simply by looking at the letter code designations.

In reality...from the paint marks ...alongside differences in part #'s...and from looking at a few over the years...some of the differences may simply be in adjustment which is mainly where the without guesswork book seems to be concerned as they note to the side that when trading one valve body unit/governor and VM to another trans or car, the VM should be readjusted.

I would also believe there are some VM's out there that either cannot be adjusted or have different ranges of adjustment.

While I fully also am with Blues90 that tweaking to find a better driving range by owner is just fine...I also firmly believe that once you find that you have adjusted by feel to your best ability...you should really put the gauges on it.

The vast majority of reasons WHY you need to adjust for proper shifting in the first place....is wear. This means possibly lower pump output pressure...so low or variable main and throttle pressure, possibly low vacuum output from engine, weak spring pressure in the modulator plunger system....a whole slew of possible issues. Just tweaking it may keep you going without that slamming shift issue or without missing gears....but iss just hiding and not fixing the issue. It will get worse. Next time you may not be able to tweak anymore.

This is another one of those items I keep telling people not to put off and just live with because its comfortable and fun to drive. Like so many other parts....automatic transmissions are not getting any easier to find. Complete kits with all parts...and good parts...are getting hard to find.

You cannot afford to start letting things that are getting harder to find...wear out to un-repairable levels...needlessly...if you want to keep these systems viable for years in the future. Just my opinion. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: type 3 vw modulator substitute? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
ddare wrote:
I broke a pump shaft a few years back and the only way I could get a replacement was to get a transmission from a junk car. Luckily I was able to get one for around $75.

If that shaft is broken, there's a good chance the oil pump is toast as well. The shaft can punch right through the back of the oil pump as there's nothing to stop it (this is what happens when you bolt the TC to the drive plate instead of putting it inside the transmission first, and then mating the two).

I still have the broken pump shaft; the end of it broke off where it connects transmission oil pump is what broke (about 1/4" in length).

As to the vacuum modulators, you can get new ones in the full rebuild kit. I see the same kit advertised for the Audi Fox/VW Dasher so I would imagine it to be the same P/N.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagon-003-Automatic-T...1145910315



Actually modulators are specific to valve body AND...the valve body is set up for the governor used. There were more than one valve body.

Just in the type 4 car factory parts catalog in the type 003 transmission section....there are two part #'s

003 325 391 B Marked with Blue paint and set to be used with governor part # 003 325 029 D

003 325 391 C marked with brown paint and set to be used with governor
part # 003 325 029 F

Oddly...they also have a note that I dont know how to decipher.

The 003 325 391 B/003 325 029 D combo has a code to the right on the page.... 003:5

The other combo says .... 003:8

I have no idea yet what that means. BUT....other notes from "without guesswork"...show that for type 3 (not type 4)...any trans using the valve body with letter code "D" from August 71 and on...should use 45.5 psi for primary throttle pressure when adjusting

And for the 003 in type 4 cars....from August 1973 and on...all listed values in the column for primary throttle pressure and main pressure....which are different from type 3 are also used on earlier "D" code valve bodies when used in type 4 cars.

This does not mean that they cannot be used in a mix and match fashion.....but they will need to to be adjusted with driving and the gauge set connected. And...i have no idea if both modulators are exactly the same in adjusting range or vacuum sensitivity.

Ray


There's actually 4 VM's for type 3s, one is for 68 up thru 70 with FI, and one for 68 up thru 70 with carbs (home market or Euro models). Then there's the 71 thru 73 with FI, and 71 thru 73 with carbs.
Remember, not every country got FI on a type 3 from 68 thru the end of production.
I don't have the VM numbers for the carb versions, due to not being able to access it on my computer (it's having a stupid moment at the moment Rolling Eyes ). Like Tram keeps mentioning every so often, you could even get a single carb thru to the end of production.
Jim Adney also tells us that carb VM's are set up differently from the FI versions. This means you're supposed to readjust an FI VM when you change it to carbs, or find a carbbed version to install.


Yes....yoou are spot on. I only have the limited automatic trans data that my texts show...which are mostly type 4 centric (the factory parts list) and all four types in the "without guesswork" book.

But even from those...its clear that there are early and late, carb and fuel injection versions and more in the pipe than just what is listed....simply by looking at the letter code designations.

In reality...from the paint marks ...alongside differences in part #'s...and from looking at a few over the years...some of the differences may simply be in adjustment which is mainly where the without guesswork book seems to be concerned as they note to the side that when trading one valve body unit/governor and VM to another trans or car, the VM should be readjusted.

I would also believe there are some VM's out there that either cannot be adjusted or have different ranges of adjustment.

While I fully also am with Blues90 that tweaking to find a better driving range by owner is just fine...I also firmly believe that once you find that you have adjusted by feel to your best ability...you should really put the gauges on it.

The vast majority of reasons WHY you need to adjust for proper shifting in the first place....is wear. This means possibly lower pump output pressure...so low or variable main and throttle pressure, possibly low vacuum output from engine, weak spring pressure in the modulator plunger system....a whole slew of possible issues. Just tweaking it may keep you going without that slamming shift issue or without missing gears....but iss just hiding and not fixing the issue. It will get worse. Next time you may not be able to tweak anymore.

This is another one of those items I keep telling people not to put off and just live with because its comfortable and fun to drive. Like so many other parts....automatic transmissions are not getting any easier to find. Complete kits with all parts...and good parts...are getting hard to find.

You cannot afford to start letting things that are getting harder to find...wear out to un-repairable levels...needlessly...if you want to keep these systems viable for years in the future. Just my opinion. Ray


I whole hardily agree with Ray and Bob on this. As they stated, there are different modulators for different engine and intake configurations. In my case the auto trans (73 SB) has been though four different engine configurations (stock FI, Stock w/ dual Solexes, Type 4 w/ dual ICTs and Type 4 w/ dual 40 DCNFs. Maybe I have been lucky, but I have been able to get the modulator to work for all engine configurations. In all cases I have been able to "DRIVE" it without adjusting the modulator, but the shift points would be off, and in one case it felt very mushy when shifting. When I first doing these changes, I made my adjustments by the seat of my pants, because I didn't have the gauges I am now a firm believer that everyone with an auto that they plan on keeping should have their trans pressure check and adjusted as necessary periodically. Not only will the trans shift at the point that it is supposed to, but I believe that you will have better longevity to the life of the transmission. Not only that, but I believe that it can point to any issues in either the engine or the transmission. So I guess in all of this long winded discussion, I feel that most modulators will probably be able to work, if you have the gauges to adjust them.
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