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My engine runs like it needs another gear
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

ALOHA 71 wrote:
So i was looking around Samba for anything engine related and i came across heat raiser getting dirty inside and making the engine loose power? well i notice my carburetor was sweating can my heat raisers be clog ? and if they are do i really need to take out the Alternator.


ALOHA 71 wrote:
So i was looking around Samba for anything engine related and i came across heat raiser getting dirty inside and making the engine loose power? well i notice my carburetor was sweating can my heat raisers be clog ? and if they are do i really need to take out the Alternator.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

funny how no one said anything about engine or trans mounts
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

Sorry tcash not my intention
I install the rpm gauge and from 3rd to 4th gear at 45 mph i am at 2800 rpm i bring it to 3000rpm (almost 50mph) and that's when i started thinking maybe is a tranni problem
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

ALOHA 71 wrote:
Sorry tcash not my intention
I install the rpm gauge and from 3rd to 4th gear at 45 mph i am at 2800 rpm i bring it to 3000rpm (almost 50mph) and that's when i started thinking maybe is a tranni problem


3000rpm in 4th gear at 50mph sounds about right. If you were to have a higher gear then the engine would need to be capable of putting out even more torque than it must do so now so your problem would only get worse and your speed decrease. You need to figure out why your engine isn't running as well as it should.
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ALOHA 72
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

It is a big relief to know the engine is not working harder, with that said i know the engine is tired I think having bear metal inside the bus it made it sound worse in the near future i will replace or rebuilt the engine she still having a hard time when is cold but after warm up she is 850 rpm.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
NASkeet wrote:
SGKent wrote:
My opinion is that the quote below is the symptom he is trying to get an answer to. Even with a 1600 DP and 002 wound out there is no excessive vibration in a bus. My suggestion would be next time he feels the vibration take his foot off the gas and push the clutch in. See if the vibration is still there or if it goes away. If it is still there it is in the driveline which begins with the lug nuts all the way back thru the CV joints. It could be nothing more than loose lug nuts. If this is not what the issue is, I suggest he clarify what it is that he is concerned about.

Quote:
i field the engine vibration inside the bus


Vibration or whole-vehicle shuddering, might be associated with a faulty cut-out type rotor arm, which is supposed to cut-out the HT ignition pulses at circa 4,500 rpm, which corresponded almost exactly to 50 mph on my speedometer, in 4th gear. When I experienced said fault, this was happening at only a little above 30 mph, in 4th gear! Shocked Confused


What gearing do you have? With my 002 I regularly shift from 3-4th at 50 mph.


It's been about 23½ years, since I last drove this vehicle with a VW 1600 Type 1 style, 50 DIN horsepower, AD-series air-cooled engine.

From what I can recall, my usual change-up speeds, for normal driving in traffic, on a level road (i.e. no upward gradient), when I didn't need to accelerate rapidly, were:

1st to 2nd @ circa 10 mph
2nd to 3rd @ circa 20 mph
3rd to 4th @ circa 30 mph

It would easily pull away from rest in 1st gear, on a level road, at slightly above the circa 800 rpm engine idling speed. Smile

I had a factory-stock, 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 transaxle (same gear & final-drive ratios as the 1973 VW 1700 Type 2, if I recall correctly) combined with 185 SR14 Reinforced radial, Michelin XZX tyres, of circa 2·04 metres external circumference. In 4th gear, this gives about 17·3 mph per 1000 rpm of the engine.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
NASkeet wrote:
SGKent wrote:
My opinion is that the quote below is the symptom he is trying to get an answer to. Even with a 1600 DP and 002 wound out there is no excessive vibration in a bus. My suggestion would be next time he feels the vibration take his foot off the gas and push the clutch in. See if the vibration is still there or if it goes away. If it is still there it is in the driveline which begins with the lug nuts all the way back thru the CV joints. It could be nothing more than loose lug nuts. If this is not what the issue is, I suggest he clarify what it is that he is concerned about.

Quote:
i field the engine vibration inside the bus


Vibration or whole-vehicle shuddering, might be associated with a faulty cut-out type rotor arm, which is supposed to cut-out the HT ignition pulses at circa 4,500 rpm, which corresponded almost exactly to 50 mph on my speedometer, in 4th gear. When I experienced said fault, this was happening at only a little above 30 mph, in 4th gear! Shocked Confused


What gearing do you have? With my 002 I regularly shift from 3-4th at 50 mph.


It's been about 23½ years, since I last drove this vehicle with a VW 1600 Type 1 style, 50 DIN horsepower, AD-series air-cooled engine.

From what I can recall, my usual change-up speeds, for normal driving in traffic, on a level road (i.e. no upward gradient), when I didn't need to accelerate rapidly, were:

1st to 2nd @ circa 10 mph
2nd to 3rd @ circa 20 mph
3rd to 4th @ circa 30 mph

It would easily pull away from rest in 1st gear, on a level road, at slightly above the circa 800 rpm engine idling speed. Smile

I had a factory-stock, 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 transaxle (same gear & final-drive ratios as the 1973 VW 1700 Type 2, if I recall correctly) combined with 185 SR14 Reinforced radial, Michelin XZX tyres, of circa 2·04 metres external circumference. In 4th gear, this gives about 17·3 mph per 1000 rpm of the engine.


Here are the VW recommendations for shifting road speeds.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you take the engine up to red line the speeds will be significantly higher. From memory I think 1st gear redlines at 24mph, and 3rd gear redlines at around 70 mph.


.
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NASkeet
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Here are the VW recommendations for shifting road speeds.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you take the engine up to red line the speeds will be significantly higher. From memory I think 1st gear redlines at 24mph, and 3rd gear redlines at around 70 mph.


One doesn't need to red-line the engine in "normal" driving!

That heated rear-window switch, shown on the dashboard, is a rare luxury here in Great Britain.
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Last edited by NASkeet on Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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ALOHA 72
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

Well iam right on the money on the shifting part i just need to keep my hands of the shifter when cruzing. I just need to drive it more so i can get use to the feeling.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
ALOHA 71 wrote:
So i was looking around Samba for anything engine related and i came across heat raiser getting dirty inside and making the engine loose power? well i notice my carburetor was sweating can my heat raisers be clog ? and if they are do i really need to take out the Alternator.


ALOHA 71 wrote:
So i was looking around Samba for anything engine related and i came across heat raiser getting dirty inside and making the engine loose power? well i notice my carburetor was sweating can my heat raisers be clog ? and if they are do i really need to take out the Alternator.


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Tcash

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:

On e doesn't need to red-line the engine in "normal" driving!


No but if you have pulled out to pass someone in 3rd gear and a car comes around the corner a half mile ahead, it is nice to know that you can just keep the pedal down and take her right up to 70 mph in 3rd to get around the car you are passing without hurting anything.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
NASkeet wrote:

One doesn't need to red-line the engine in "normal" driving!


No but if you have pulled out to pass someone in 3rd gear and a car comes around the corner a half mile ahead, it is nice to know that you can just keep the pedal down and take her right up to 70 mph in 3rd to get around the car you are passing without hurting anything.


I wouldn't regard overtaking with a 1968~79 VW 1600 Type 2, on a single-carriage road, as normal driving. On our twisting, winding rural roads, with only short straight sections and good visibility, it would be virtual suicide most of the time. Shocked To have a corner as much as half-mile (i.e. 880 yards or 40 chains or 4 furlongs) ahead, would be a rare luxury. Rolling Eyes Here, on many rural roads, the sharp bends or corners, might be only 50~200 yards away at most! Sad It's under these conditions, that one really learns how to drive a low-powered VW 1600 Type 2 or Triumph Toledo 1300; especially when steep hills are also involved. Cool

Wildthings wrote:
If you take the engine up to red line the speeds will be significantly higher. From memory I think 1st gear redlines at 24mph, and 3rd gear redlines at around 70 mph.


What engine speed would you regard as red-lining, for a factory-stock VW 1600 Type 2 engine?

If overtaking a SLOW-moving vehicle, such as an agricultural tractor or combined harvester, I would certainly change down a gear or two before overtaking, but revving a VW 1600 Type 2 engine to 70 mph in 3rd gear, might be pushing one's luck!
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Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

I drove the bus around town and she did really good thanks everyone of advise and suggestions.

I was going down the road and i ran out of gas Sad I got gas got it to run again and came home to work on the NON working gas gauge i look around the forum but nothing is helping I test the brown wire and i read 5.78v in the fron and back by the tank what's missing?

I promise i click one time lol
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:
If overtaking a SLOW-moving vehicle, such as an agricultural tractor or combined harvester, I would certainly change down a gear or two before overtaking, but revving a VW 1600 Type 2 engine to 70 mph in 3rd gear, might be pushing one's luck!


Sorry I don't own my van so that I can spend all day piddling around at 30mph behind some farm truck. When I want to put 1000 miles behind me by the end of a long day of driving, I want to be able to pass and do it on a fairly steep grade. If that requires that I have to run the engine hard then so be it, that is why I own it and in 40 years of driving VW I have never seen where running a VW engine up to a reasonable rpm like you would see when hitting 70mph in 3rd for a short period hurts it at all.

Check out the rev limiting rotors offered by Aircooled.net, the lowest set point they offer is 4500, while the rest are all substantially higher.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Bosch-RPM-Limiting-Rotor-1971-SVDA-and-009s-p/rev-limiting-rotor.htm
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

Yesterday , I managed to overtake an agricultural tractor and trailer going at 30mph on one of those winding British roads, going gently uphill at about 45mph with RPM at 4500 in 3rd gear.

That is with a not particularly 'special' 1641 engine, but with everything working fairly well.

It does sound like it wants to come apart above 4100 rpm when the exhaust actually starts to work and the exhaust note changes (4 into 1 plus single quiet pack) , and the progressive carburettor is a bit better at letting air in as well.

I know that my engine will run up to 38mph going uphill onto a motorway on-ramp in second gear or about 5700 rpm but I do not like doing it in my bus...

And I have seen a peak reading after a trip of 5900 rpm come up - somewhere in a gearchange.

But in the back of my mind is still the time my engine started falling apart going up hill at 65 in 4th and a second time on the next hill on a different day when the clutch let loose at 65 when the gearbox oil covered it, due to damage from the first breakdown (backfiring and very rough two cylinder running when an exhaust rocker arm slid off the end of the shaft with a broken spring, and the backfires blew out one of the manifold boots. It would not go gently uphill at 10mph in first gear and needed a tow... )
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:30 pm    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

WOW:(
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

I'm always trying to shift into 5th Rolling Eyes Laughing Nature of the buses Wink if they didn't install 5:37 ring&pinions in them,they couldn't make them mountain climbs in Germany Laughing plus the fact of rpm's keeping them Cool(aircooled) Arrow not a modern watercooled low rpm car w/overdrive Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:27 am    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:
If overtaking a SLOW-moving vehicle, such as an agricultural tractor or combined harvester, I would certainly change down a gear or two before overtaking, but revving a VW 1600 Type 2 engine to 70 mph in 3rd gear, might be pushing one's luck!


Checking my charts and tables which I prepared during the late-1990s, the engine of a VW 1600 Type 2, with factory-stock transaxle and 185/80 R14 tyres, would be running at circa 6,300 rpm in 3rd gear at 70 mph; assuming it were capable of accelerating to this true road speed, in 3rd gear, with a factory-stock AD or AE series, 50 DIN horsepower engine.

Wildthings wrote:
Sorry I don't own my van so that I can spend all day piddling around at 30mph behind some farm truck. When I want to put 1000 miles behind me by the end of a long day of driving, I want to be able to pass and do it on a fairly steep grade. If that requires that I have to run the engine hard then so be it, that is why I own it and in 40 years of driving VW I have never seen where running a VW engine up to a reasonable rpm like you would see when hitting 70mph in 3rd for a short period hurts it at all.


If you were behind an agricultural tractor or combined harvester, you would more likely to be piddling around at less than 20 mph in 2nd gear, for as long as it took for traffic to clear sufficiently and provide enough visibly clear road ahead to safely overtake. Road-casualty rates per 1000 driver-miles, are TOO high in Great Britain, but are much higher in the USA. Probably only Sweden, with a much smaller population density and traffic density, has a consistently lower casualty rate than Great Britain.

Assuming one drives continuously for 24 hours, without sleeping or stops for refuelling, eating, drinking or use of toilet facilities, one would need to average 41•67 mph, to cover 1000 miles in 24 hours (i.e. exactly 1 whole day)! Maintaining such a high average speed, in a 1968~79 VW 1600 Type 2, would be challenging, even on good motorways (i.e. autoroutes, autobahns, autostradas & “Interstate Highways”, etc) with minimal gradients (i.e. no more than 1 in 25 or 4%).

If one factors in just 6 hours’ sleep, plus 15 minute rest stops every 2 hours, for exercise, eating, drinking, toilet use and refuelling the vehicle at circa 250~300 mile intervals, this would leave just 16 hours driving per day; requiring an average speed of 62•5 mph to cover 1000 miles. Even my venerable 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 saloon, would struggle to sustain such a high average speed, using exclusively motorways, on which there was good traffic flow with no slow-moving lorries or other hold-ups. Even 8 hours driving in one day, is hard going, but as much as16 hours would be suicidal!

When I travelled home in the Triumph from university at the weekends, during the early-1980s, using dual-carriageways & motorways (70 mph maximum speed limit for cars), for about 80~85% of the 80 mile journey, the total journey time was almost exactly 2 hours; corresponding to an average speed of 40 mph. Over a cross-country route (also of 80 ± 0•1 miles, by coincidence), using predominantly A-Class single-carriageway roads, the journey typically took 2½ hours. Journey times in the 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 would have taken noticeably longer, as I later discovered on similar weekend 130 mile journeys, between home and the Royal Military College of Science, using both vehicles, during the 1990/91 academic year.

Hill gradients on many British rural & urban roads, are of circa 1 in 10 or 10% gradient, but there are some which are as steep as 1 in 2½ or 40%; requiring 1st gear, if not a 0th gear. Gradients of intermediate steepness are not uncommon and I could show you some in my own county of Essex, in what is a relatively flat part of Great Britain.

Wildthings wrote:
Check out the rev limiting rotors offered by Aircooled.net, the lowest set point they offer is 4500, while the rest are all substantially higher.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Bosch-RPM-Limiting-Rotor-1971-SVDA-and-009s-p/rev-limiting-rotor.htm


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In all conscience, I would NOT advocate the use of any of these Bosch rev-limiting rotor arms. When the spring-loaded rev-limiter abruptly cuts in at whatever engine speed (e.g. 4500, 5400 or 5800 rpm), the engine suddenly loses all power and the entire vehicle shudders violently (high-amplitude, low-frequency vibration), which is worse than driving fast along rutted, potholed, corrugated, rock-strewn roads; as I know from road journeys in Africa. If it persisted, this would soon shake the vehicle to pieces.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Bosch-RPM-Limiting-Rotor-1971-SVDA-and-009s-p/rev-limiting-rotor.htm

If a rev-limiter is sought, then it would be better to use an adjustable smooth-cut, electronic rev-limiter, which progressively cuts out an increasing proportion of high-voltage ignition pulses, as engine speed increases beyond the set point. This is what is incorporated into my Microdynamics Formula 1 FCD electronic ignition system. Separate rev-limiters of this type are also available.

http://newtronic.co.uk/index.php/support/63-faqs5-engine-control

http://www.newtronic.co.uk/products/category/33-rev-limiters-and-shift-lights
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Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

madmike wrote:
I'm always trying to shift into 5th Rolling Eyes Laughing Nature of the buses Wink if they didn't install 5:37 ring&pinions in them,they couldn't make them mountain climbs in Germany Laughing plus the fact of rpm's keeping them Cool(aircooled) Arrow not a modern watercooled low rpm car w/overdrive Laughing


If one could contrive to substitute a VW Vanagon 16/1700 diesel's five-speed transaxle, into one's 1968~79 VW 1600 Type 2, and maybe substitute 185/75 R14 tyres, this would give virtually the same overall gearing in top gear and a better climbing ability in 1st, with five more closely spaced ratios.
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Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: My engine runs like it needs another gear Reply with quote

I'm living testament to what destroys bus engines, low speed lugging under load.

Anecdotal evidence has me driving from pollis restaurant makawao Maui to Lahaina drunk on tequila rocking tunes so loud to not hear the screaming my 1600 was doing @75 in third all the way back.
Every Friday for years in a 71 crew cab alternator dual puma carbs timing 32 full advance valves 006.
All the next owner had to say was the timing was a bit advanced.
So he said, since he's dead now, who's right?
I'll scream at 6500 all day long, little lesson I learned working at VW used parts center in San Jose ca circa 1983 (thanks Al) boss told me to pull engine when I got back from lunch. So I took my yard box out to the car and started it and put my box on the gas pedal and walked away. 30 minutes while ate my hamburger with VW grease present on my hands enough to transfer grease to my food and I smiled when I chewed it, thinking that rod was going to let go any time, it never did. The customer got a good used transmission, I had a fun lunch listening to that thing rattling out there and cementing my my approval of the VW design for life.
Fuck the previous owner, I paid for it, it's my responsibility. A boy blames the previous owner. That crew cab was has for a song and a burned 100 dollar motor from the picnpull with no known history. It's fist job was to carry 7k lbs worth tool steel to matson. Put your calculators away and get out and drive.
Sometimes it's safer to stay in third, cause anyone who knows hawaii will tell you it's lawless over there and guys and gals driving drunk like its New Years every dam day. And in my case driving in forth would've got me killed because of speed alone. 4th gear would have put me into pegged speedo category and on those roads in the dark no matter how many times you drive em, just isn't safe.

Hey aloha 71 you say that bus ran good when you bought it, so is that the previous owners fault?
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