Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Auto Trans gave up the ghost
Page: Previous  1, 2
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dorje
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Berkeley
dorje is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

Thanks for the heads up! I'll definitely attend to that in detail when I get my rebuilt transmission in.

Exactly, the relay lever connects directly to the throttle body on the subaru. It's actually a sweet setup, really good pedal feel compared to winding a subaru cable around from what I hear. I'll get a good picture of it for you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dorje
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Berkeley
dorje is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dorje
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Berkeley
dorje is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

Been thinking about dan's words of wisdom re: throttle cable linkage to the selector lever. This is probably the screw-up that originally caused it to not up-shift at the right RPM, and the other issues (IAC, heavy load) just exacerbated this, eventually burning out the frictions, and now whatever else wasn't able to keep up and ended up as metal in the pan. :-/ Expensive lesson.

But seriously, how hard would it be to rebuild this myself? By "hard" I mean how easy is it to screw something up and not notice until too late? I've read through the Bentley procedure a couple times. Seems like a lot of steps but nothing too difficult, except I may need a micrometer for measuring some of the tolerances. How many hours do you think it would it take for an auto trans newbie? I look at such things as an investment for when I'm in the middle of nowhere and something goes wrong... Do you think the metal shavings indicate that something might be broken that is not in the usual overhaul kit?

I'm trying hard to avoid the $2k-3k bill here..... not sure if it'll be worth the van downtime though, or the possibility of doing it wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
kourt
Samba Member


Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1922
Location: Austin, TX
kourt is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

20 hours... not hard. If you can do a brake/bearings job on your wheels, you can do the transmission.

See my linked post earlier in this thread... it's all there.

kourt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dorje
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Berkeley
dorje is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

I'm going for it! Ordered all the parts today. Kourt's thread is invaluable, not least for sourcing all the parts. Just have to wait for ground shipping...

Also ordered a rebuilt torque converter from GoWesty.

Do I need a good source of compressed air to do the transmission pressure tests in the Bentley? What else would I need to do that?

Can't wait for my master rebuild kit to arrive.....!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
kourt
Samba Member


Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1922
Location: Austin, TX
kourt is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

dorje wrote:
I'm going for it! Ordered all the parts today. Kourt's thread is invaluable, not least for sourcing all the parts. Just have to wait for ground shipping...

Also ordered a rebuilt torque converter from GoWesty.

Do I need a good source of compressed air to do the transmission pressure tests in the Bentley? What else would I need to do that?

Can't wait for my master rebuild kit to arrive.....!


The compressed air tests will give you a very good assessment of how the rebuild is progressing before you put the whole thing back in the van. You can always bring the transmission, without the oil pan installed, to an air source and check it there.

kourt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dorje
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Berkeley
dorje is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

The rebuild is going well. It was harder (for me) getting it out of the van than taking everything apart and putting it back together! Transmission section is now back together. A couple of pictures to prove that it was ever apart Smile

Having some fun taking it all apart
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


lots of rings
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.





kourt, curious why the parts list in your post (lifesaving for a complete neophyte like myself) didn't include Raybestos friction rings for the 1st intermediate clutch? I used the wittrans rings for all of the clutches except the 1st intermed., where I just used the Exedy from the master rebuild kit.

Drained the engine oil from the differential. Going to replace a few of the oil seals and o-rings around the outside. I was in the process of pulling the bottom diff pan off when I realized I was trying to hold it, balance it in a smallish oil catch pan, and pry off the silicone ATV holding the pan on at the same time. I didn't fancy a garage floor sheen of weird smelling engine oil, so I figured maybe the ATV wasn't so bad after all. I'll save the cork gasket for a rainy day a few years hence when I get that limited-slip....

So now my attention turns to preventing my clutches from just burning up again. This great thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/archive/index.php/o-t--t-613826--.html
talks about not only the governor mod (which I'll probably do since I have it out anyway), and not just an amazing write up by kourt about governor vs throttle adjustment theory, but also a vital clue about adjusting the pedal cable to the kickdown lever, specifically: "on that rod is the "kick down" function it is essentially an input to the trans... if left too soft you will burn out the clutch packs, we had this on my brother's AT before he figured it out." --danfromsyr

I'm betting in my case the pedal cable is not even coming close to hitting the kickdown when it was in full throttle. So I had adjusted the throttle body pushrod to give powerful engine revs, while the kickdown lever was still thinking that the throttle was just gently accelerating.


Last edited by dorje on Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dorje
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Berkeley
dorje is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

Note: The master rebuild kit and also the 087 reference both have 5 frictions for the 1st intermediate clutch, but the Bentley shows four.

Just use four.

reference: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6...;start=100


Last edited by dorje on Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dorje
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Berkeley
dorje is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

OK so one thing about the governor, I was having the problem where the ball would get stuck sometimes, as described here: https://youtu.be/uWtUef-ptFk?t=2m29s

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Notice how it's not completely level: it slopes up and to the left. It was worse before I fixed it.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The fix involved a shop towel and a pair of vice grips.


Last edited by dorje on Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dorje
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Berkeley
dorje is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

Getting ready to put it back in the van. I'm a bit concerned about the oil pump shaft sitting too low.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dorje
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Berkeley
dorje is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

Looks like kourt answered this one already, the middle shaft should be flush with the outer shaft. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=497911&view=next

kourt wrote:
Looking at your original pictures, what I see is the outermost shaft seated properly but the middle shaft is extended too far. This extension is common when the transmission has been moved or partially disassembled.

You need to remove the torque converter, remove the innermost shaft (oil pump shaft that you just sourced) and use a soft rubber mallet to gently tap that middle shaft to its proper seating while at the same time rotating it back and forth with your fingers to help it find its splines. What you are doing is overcoming the friction of a few shaft seals in the transmission, but you need to do it gently. When it is properly seated it should sit at the same depth as the outer shaft. Once that's done, you reinsert the oil pump shaft and it should extend beyond the two larger shafts by around 3/4".

It should look more like this once the shafts are properly seated:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You need to make sure that central oil pump shaft is bedded into the splines at the front end of the transmission or you won't have any ATF pump action. You can test this by gently turning the pump shaft using your fingers--you'll hear and feel it turning the pump splines in the opposite end of the transmission near the ATF cooler ports.

Both Bentley and Haynes have little blurbs, with lineart profile illustrations, describing the importance of properly seating the pump shaft before installing the torque converter. A properly installed torque converter should measure 10 mm from its centering nub to the plane of the transmission bell housing flange that mates with the engine. Haynes manuals have an error here, saying the gap is 10mm (correct) or 2.5 inches (incorrect, typographical error). Pay attention to this.

When you reinstall the whole thing, pay attention to whether the torque converter slides aft accidentally while installing. This may foul the pump shaft orientation. Many manuals recommend binding the torque converter in place with wire to prevent this. I've never had a problem with the torque converter slipping out during installation.

If I were doing this job I would also change the torque converter seal (use the one GoWesty sells--it's a Napa part--or use the one O'Reilly Auto Parts sells). The seal I have in my photo is not the best seal--it will unseat and leak ATF very easily.

I hope this helps.

kourt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dorje
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Berkeley
dorje is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

Anybody recognize this?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Almost 1.2mm so I'm guessing end play shim.

EDIT

As kourt notes below, it's an endplay shim. My calculations put x=0.6mm, so no shims necessary!


Last edited by dorje on Fri May 06, 2016 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
kourt
Samba Member


Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1922
Location: Austin, TX
kourt is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

That looks like an endplay adjustment shim for the transmission--see page 38.5 in the Bentley for information on that. It's important.

kourt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
danfromsyr
Samba Member


Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15129
Location: Syracuse, NY
danfromsyr is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

Indeed in this image you don't have the function of the spring. that allows the throttle pedal & trans relay rod to continue into kickdown once the throttle body is stopped in movement at WOT.

you can (*Should be able to) set the single solid (non-spring over run) linkage to kick down at WOT simultaneously.
this may (likely) result in more robust shift engagement (like sport mode) but you don't go WOT in a Subie powered van often anyways.
this may sound like fun till a windy road with snow/gravel up hill Wink
dorje wrote:
I'm betting in my case the pedal cable is not even coming close to hitting the kickdown when it was in full throttle. So I had adjusted the throttle body pushrod to give powerful engine revs, while the kickdown lever was still thinking that the throttle was just gently accelerating.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Abscate wrote:
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dorje
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Berkeley
dorje is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Auto Trans gave up the ghost Reply with quote

Yes, I did exactly that: I adjusted the throttle and pushrod until kickdown is engaged at WOT...

But what I hear you saying it that in the stock configuration, kickdown is engaged somewhere shy of WOT, and the spring provides some resistance to keep the kickdown engaged but still allow the throttle to open further?

I wonder if it's possible to rig something like that with my setup. At what point in pushing down the throttle does the kickdown normally engage?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.