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0cean
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Joined: February 29, 2012
Posts: 1149
Location: California
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 Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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I have seen these at ace hardware for some time and took a pic. Some of them look to be the right size, but I have not investigated very hard yet.
Wonder how Nylon would hold up and if it would reduce sliding noise.
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I'm not a mechanic, I just play one on the internet
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djkeev
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9600
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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This SHUFTI blog post has some good info that's very specific to this thread....
I like this line the best.....
"You know, this is the kind of project that 99.9% of people would look at and shake their heads, mutter “get a life” and then wander off to chat with someone else. It is only when i sit down and write this post does that realization sink in."
Funny stuff. But hey, that's what a hobby is! I'd sure like my door to be whisper-quiet. If only somebody can find a urethane wheel that can take the force (and scrubbing).
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Merian
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Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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| might be fruitful to look at modern Honda mini-vans to see how they do it |
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djkeev
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Merian
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Joined: January 04, 2014
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Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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what if you mounted the dB meter where you stand when opening the door?
it is sitting on an acoustically reflective surface (that vibrates to boot)
use a tripod - this will give you something to do while waiting for the package
unless... unless you want to spend that time looking for UHMW bearings  |
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goffoz
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Joined: May 09, 2007
Posts: 1486
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
This SHUFTI blog post has some good info that's very specific to this thread....
I like this line the best.....
"You know, this is the kind of project that 99.9% of people would look at and shake their heads, mutter “get a life” and then wander off to chat with someone else. It is only when i sit down and write this post does that realization sink in."
Funny stuff. But hey, that's what a hobby is! I'd sure like my door to be whisper-quiet. If only somebody can find a urethane wheel that can take the force (and scrubbing). |
Great link! ^^^
The imagine that the fact that I should get a life is probably on many peoples minds about now! 
Some like tennis, some stamp collecting, whatever...... I tinker with my Van and wonder.... "What if......"
Dave |
After looking at all these ideas and arguments, I'm going to try removing all the bearings on my parts van, and replace each assembly with a block of UHMW (appropriately shaped)
...a little silicone grease should be silent and indestructible 
I'll let youknow
As an aside... my well maintained door running on UHMW tape has been pleasantly quiet for yrs  |
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djkeev
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ALIKA T3
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Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 6345
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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Hello!
where did you get these rollers made?
To install the door yourself:
The bottom section floor roller assembly goes in by itself, not attached to the door.
Then put the outside track roller first, there's a slight notch where it goes in and out of the track to give you clearance.
Then you can rest the door on the bottom roller assembly and put a bolt to hold it.
Then you can mount the top inside roller (ceiling track) 
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
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djkeev
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djkeev
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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I assembled my Sliding door with my new bearings.
I Sourced my mini metric bearings from my local Fastenal store. Maybe not the cheapest but no freight and fast service....
608.....
609.....
I also got some PTFE (teflon) tape. My tape is only .003" thick for there isn't a lot of extra space in the roller channels. .......
I know well about the noise canceling attributes of UHMW tape and am also well aware that the tape fails from heat and from pressure of the steel wheels bearing down upon the tape over time.
PTFE tape has a much higher working temperature. I figured that I would wrap the two 608 bearings and the two 609 bearings with the tape to lessen friction and to hopefully quiet any metal to metal vibration.
As a bonus, the PTFE would save my new paint from being scuffed off by a steel roller!
So...... I wrapped the four steel bearings......
I was careful to not overlap the ends but to butt the tape ends perfectly on the bearings, this would eliminate any "thump, thump, thump" that a tape overlap would produce as the bearing rolls.......
I also tried to line the roller groove with PTFE tape, this was a tedious task for the PTFE tape stretches, curls and is really hard to work with!
The outer upper track was easy!
The lower track was a total PITA with no room to work..... I gave up.
I did the rear track but with the bearings wrapped in PTFE and the outer track covered in PTFE that .009 (a little more when you count the adhesive on the tape, probably .011) thickness removed any clearance for the roller rotating.
I removed the PTFE from the rear track.
This left me with four PTFE covered bearings and the upper outer track covered in PTFE tape.
Here are the two 608 bearings wrapped with PTFE mounted onto the rear slider assembly......
I abandoned my new steel grooved sliding door roller for my newly discovered Delrin 30mm x 6mm x 10mm x 22mm (groove depth diameter) grooved roller.
I had to file the bearing axle down to accept the 6mm bearing hub size. This is my only irreversible modification I made.
With this Delrin grooved roller, I veered off track and am admittedly totally experimenting. I also purchased the same Delrin grooved roller but with a 24mm groove depth in case my experiment fails! (Along with a third roller whose center bearing hole size is way too large! )
I used plastic door edge/rain gutter moulding to cover the grooved bearing guide lip. The 22mm roller gives me the clearance I need for the roller to fit on top of the door edge moulding.
I honestly do not know what plastic this door edge is made of but I do know from experience that it withstands the hot searing heat of Summer Sun from previous use of the product......... On a Black truck's door edges of all things!
Lacking shear physical strength (or proper technique, since revealed to me by ALIKA T3 ) the end of a night, door leaning against the Van waiting for installation....
My Delrin grooved roller worked great as did my new alternative bottom roller.
I had tried PTFE tape on the two 608 rear bearings in the hope of quieting them.
Sadly I've come to discover that the rear bearing noise is not unlike a drum with the rear quarter panel amplifying and resonating any noise into the Van.
I've located some alternative bearings which should be in next week.
I'll install them and see how it is........
http://www.vxb.com/Plastic-POM-608-Glass-Balls-8x22x7-Miniature-p/kit12489.htm
I Ordered a pair of POM 608 and a pair of POM 609 bearings.....
Details.......
Yes, I know, these bearings have an open ball race. That is why I passed on them initially, fear of dirt contamination!
But..... If they prove themselves to be quiet bed mates...... I'll figure something out to keep them clean!
*************
Radial With Glass Bearing, Bearing is Polymer Raceways with glass. the dimensions are 8mm x 22mm x 7mm.
Item: POM 608 Bearing
Type: Plastic Radial With Glass Bearing
Material: POM (Polyoxymethylene) also know as Acetal
Inner Diameter: 8mm
Outer Diameter: 22mm
Width: 7mm
Size: 8 x 22 x 7 mm
Speed: 1,600 RPM
Load Capacity Dynamic: 42 LBS
Load Capacity Static: 33 LBS
Quantity: One bearing
**************
Doing editing and adding photos is making a long cumbersome post, The rest of this post I've cut and started again below a few comments made earlier......
Dave
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Last edited by djkeev on Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:17 am; edited 15 times in total |
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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<<<This is an experiment that is honestly costing as much as if not more than I would have spent if I just purchased the "stock" bearings from Van Cafe. >>>
Honestly I am totally knocked abaft by this conclusion.
I thought for sure you would be on a roll here with experimenting with all kinds of selections / combinations for at least 9-10 months prior to really digging deep and getting near the $30.00 for the VC bearing.
I am really suprised at this Eurika 
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djkeev
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DwarfVader
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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I was going to say... even if you end up spending 1.5x or 2x what the VC rollers cost... If the end result is a "shwooosh click," not "KAAAAAARKDUNK click," I think it's a solid investment.
And all the better that you document things as fastidiously as you do, so we can all reap the rewards and pay pittance to achieve the same result. Sure, you may end up paying 1.5x or 2x more than VC rollers, but you win because they are BETTER rollers, we win because we get better rollers for nadda.
That's win win.
Just because those wins aren't equal, doesn't mean they aren't wins any less.
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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Dave,
As you mentioned, the rear panel that has the track on it for the rear roller is going to resonate that movement like a drum.
You'd almost have to affix foam rubber on that track to quiet it down totally.
Isolate the roller from the metal track.
Delrin is the right way to go, my question woulsld be how long will it support the bearing with the tiny c-clip groove?
This will be interesting.
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djkeev
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:43 am Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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Continuing on fleshing out my adventures with Sliding Doors!......
**************
My new lower door roller is a 608 based "plastic. Roller that required minor modifications to install.
It cost $4.95
http://www.vxb.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=8mmx32mm-Tire
The roller wheel is a hard plastic of unknown composition........
The diameter is 32mm...... 2mm greater than the 30mm stock roller.
Because of this I had to remove a bit of Aluminum for mounting and rolling clearance.
It wasn't much material needing to be removed, my Dremel with a abrasive grinding stone made short work of the task.....
The center bearing bore accepts a shaft of 8mm rather than the stock 7mm.
Look at the photo below again, see the small shaft in the larger bearing bore?
To compensate I shimmed the bore for a snug fit.
I hadn't any shim stock on hand (make mental note..... GET SOME!!!! )
But I did have aluminum step flashing! Turns out it worked perfectly!
See the photo below, you can see the shim stock.....
I Also had to modify the lower mount point for the new bearing. It is thicker so I had to remove some material around the roller axle point,
The new bearing is .281"
And the original is .240"
clearly seen in this photo below ...... A file on the aluminum casting was quick and easy.....
Here is the assembled unit ready to install.....
As far as operation? It works great!
I lubed the sliding track with liquid PTFE which is a dry lube which won't collect dirt but will require reapplication a few times a year.
I am very pleased with this $5 roller!
The grooved rear roller?
This one is working fantastic!
I'll keep an eye on it during the hot Summer months and see how the door edge holds up.
This is an experiment that is honestly costing as much as if not more than I would have spent if I just purchased the "stock" bearings from Van Cafe.
Between buying multiple bearings (more than the required quantity in case I messed up along the way) the shipping from various vendors, UHMW tape, PTFE tape and the rollers I'll never use........ But I'm having fun and am hoping for the most quiet that can be expected given the original design.
I'm guessing if one were to transplant in a power close mechanism as new minivans have, sliding door noise would be almost non existent. These modern doors close very slowly so there is very little objectionable resonance produced.
But..... I'm NOT going down this rabbit hole!
Dave
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ALIKA T3
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Joined: July 30, 2009
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Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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I love your project man, it's not about the money, it's about finding a solution that puts you at peace at night 
I will just put that here for you to copy and paste in Google Search, bc I mentionned earlier in this thread or somewhere else that you can find all these all done i Germany, but nobody noticed my comment
Flüsterrollen für Schiebetür VW Bus T3
Aloha
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Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
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djkeev
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dhaavers
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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Wow is right...$100+ for a few rollers & hardware...???
Uff da. I like your version just fine!
- Dave
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vanis13
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives |
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$90 euro for 85+ ($120 Euro for <84)
now that you have it figured out, how much to buy the bearings/rollers you are using?
| djkeev wrote: |
| ALIKA T3 wrote: |
I love your project man, it's not about the money, it's about finding a solution that puts you at peace at night
I will just put that here for you to copy and paste in Google Search, bc I mentionned earlier in this thread or somewhere else that you can find all these all done i Germany, but nobody noticed my comment
Flüsterrollen für Schiebetür VW Bus T3
Aloha |
Like....... WOW!!!!!!
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/vw-bus...1-223-4975
Dave |
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