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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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 Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:10 pm Post subject: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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I really need to change/lower the rear drive ratio on my 003. From the Without Guesswork it looks as though I have 3.67. I would really like to see about 4.4 in about there. I am running 31" tire for additional ground clearance and it is struggling to turn them from a hard start. Get it rolling and look out, I think the top speed would peel off your eyelids, but a moped could get the first 10 yards on me.
Is there any drag guys out there with automatics that have access to or know where a guy could find such an animal?
If it was possible there would be a set of RGBs on it right now
Thanks
Willy |
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jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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Easiest way to change the final drive is use a Bus or Vanagon automatic transaxle.
Reduction boxes have been done to IRS setups, but you have to flip the ring gear. It not something that can be done in a automatic transaxle.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Easiest way to change the final drive is use a Bus or Vanagon automatic transaxle.
Reduction boxes have been done to IRS setups, but you have to flip the ring gear. It not something that can be done in a automatic transaxle. |
Yes, Ive done that in the past but that was long before I broke my neck, now require auto with handcontrols.
I'm now a wheelchair recipient, C6 incomplete and Ive built this Chenoworth from ground up, with some help obviously. Since the first time I drove it near end of last summer Ive been disappointed in the performance |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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| MacLeod Willy wrote: |
| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Easiest way to change the final drive is use a Bus or Vanagon automatic transaxle.
Reduction boxes have been done to IRS setups, but you have to flip the ring gear. It not something that can be done in a automatic transaxle. |
Yes, Ive done that in the past but that was long before I broke my neck, now require auto with handcontrols.
I'm now a wheelchair recipient, C6 incomplete and Ive built this Chenoworth from ground up, with some help obviously. Since the first time I drove it near end of last summer Ive been disappointed in the performance |
Yes....get an automatic from a vanagon or bus with,the lower gear ratio.
The issue with the 003 from the type 3 and type 4 cars....and it "may" be the same on the bus version....is that it uses a true hypoid differential. The pinion shaft crosses the ring gear at about the 7 ocpock position and the pinion gear contacts offset at around the 5 oclock position. The gear itself is flipped...and splined onto the pinion shaft. It all loaxed into a dedicated cast iron gear carrier. Nice bulletproox design actually.
Aside from some American ars that may use the same design on fwd....no aftermarket gear sets are available for these trans that I know of. Ray |
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Dougy Dee
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2004
Posts: 1669
Location: Niagara Region, CANADA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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| What about a converter with a higher stall speed? |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| MacLeod Willy wrote: |
| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Easiest way to change the final drive is use a Bus or Vanagon automatic transaxle.
Reduction boxes have been done to IRS setups, but you have to flip the ring gear. It not something that can be done in a automatic transaxle. |
Yes, Ive done that in the past but that was long before I broke my neck, now require auto with handcontrols.
I'm now a wheelchair recipient, C6 incomplete and Ive built this Chenoworth from ground up, with some help obviously. Since the first time I drove it near end of last summer Ive been disappointed in the performance |
Yes....get an automatic from a vanagon or bus with,the lower gear ratio.
The issue with the 003 from the type 3 and type 4 cars....and it "may" be the same on the bus version....is that it uses a true hypoid differential. The pinion shaft crosses the ring gear at about the 7 ocpock position and the pinion gear contacts offset at around the 5 oclock position. The gear itself is flipped...and splined onto the pinion shaft. It all loaxed into a dedicated cast iron gear carrier. Nice bulletproox design actually.
Aside from some American ars that may use the same design on fwd....no aftermarket gear sets are available for these trans that I know of. Ray |
I was hoping you were going to give me some info on this. Thanks
I couldn't find any info on aftermarket gears anywhere. I did read about a couple of guys that drag the auto and wondered what they were using.
Still grasping at straws looking for a set |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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| Dougy Dee wrote: |
| What about a converter with a higher stall speed? |
John's Bug Shop is looking for a spare converter for me to cut apart and see what I can do in there to raise the stall. It will get me higher into the power band which is going to help.
Thanks |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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The only disadvantage to modifying the convertor is I see a bit of trial and error. Lots of work to correct that. If gears were avail you know what you should get first try.. Sure would be nice to get an idler gear placed into an RGB  |
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Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2105
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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| 3.67 would be from a type 3 or an early 2 or 4 door 411, you can get a r&p from a later type 4 and it's shorter (3.9something?), but a complete bus trans is probably your best bet |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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| Slow 1200 wrote: |
| 3.67 would be from a type 3 or an early 2 or 4 door 411, you can get a r&p from a later type 4 and it's shorter (3.9something?), but a complete bus trans is probably your best bet |
But...if you notice ...some of the later bus have a larger/different differential housing. The differential spool and gear may not drop into the gear carrier of the type 3/4 version of the 003.
Also in general you do not need a complete transmission. Its the best way to go because there were differences in valve body tuning. The differential sections of the 003's are separate from the automatic gear section. You can replace the entire differential section in about 45 minutes from start to finish.
The "003" section is the automatic section itself. The bus diff section "should" bolt right on.
Also...there are torque converters that already exist for some of the vanagon or bus...that already have a higher rpm stall point than the 003 in the type 3/4 that others have used with success.
Do a search here in the 411/412 forum and on the STF in the type forum and vanagon forums.
For the 411 and 412 cars...the 003 automatic came with:
9:33 tooth final drive (3.67:1 ratio) to chassis #410 2100 000 (models 411-426) part # for the final drive gear set 003 519 101.
11:43 tooth final drive (3.90:1 ratio) from 460 2000 001 (models 461-466)
and from chassis # 411 2000 001 (models 411-466)
To know what models of those cars you may be looking for in your search:
411: lhd 2 door "L"
412: rhd 2 door "L"
415: Lhd 2 door
416: rhd 2 door
421: lhd 4 door "L"
422: rhd 4 door "L"
425: lhd 4 door
426: rhd 4 door
461: lhd wagon "L"
462: rhd wagon "L"
465: lhd wagon
466: rhd wagon
Since they were all badged just 411 (from 71 to 8-72) or 412 (after 8-72 to 8-74)....you will have to look at the number plate in the trunk on the passenger side to see what it "came" with. Whether it still has that....is a coin toss. The types 3 cars....I think...came with one ratio...the 3.67:1. Don't quote me on that please. There is also an early and late model with differing side output shaft seal assemblies. I think the earlier model with the five bolt seal ring is a tougher design.
Of course...finding a 411 or 412 in the first place... is not just a simple trip to the junkyard. 
Ray |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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RAY!!!
How do you ever get all this information. Did you write Without Guesswork?
Thank you, I am looking that direction now |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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I did a complete reseal of the transmission before I installed it. The outside looked like an old boot, but the inside looked like it just came out of the factory. Bet there was hardy enough smudge in the pan to get your finger tip covered. All seal and gaskets had to be original, just remembering the aggravation it was getting them out.
Wish I knew then that other drives might be interchanged.
Now the search begins |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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| MacLeod Willy wrote: |
RAY!!!
How do you ever get all this information. Did you write Without Guesswork?
Thank you, I am looking that direction now |
...no but I have without guesswork....and just about every book written on type 4 cars and the factory parts book for type 4.......and I have to pay attention to it and know my way around it.......because its mostly what I work on.....and parts are harder to find for them than any other VW except probably a hebmueller. Ray |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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After getting the information from you guys, I was on a mission to find a 39 rear gear. Found an automatic from a 411 on KIJIJI for $100.00 but the seller had no idea of the gears. On a gamble I bought it.
After degreasing and scraping I was excited to see 39 in faded yellow grease pencil on the pot. Wasn't sure but it was too coincidental that number would show up there.
Pulled the pot and found the 39:1 gears. Good shape, no filings or metal chips inside. Merry Christmas to me!!
Now the mystery on the torque convertor. I degreased it to find the letter "D" stamped on one of the tabs.
Anyone know where I would find the stall speed on this thing.
Thanks for the help, I might end up with a whole lot more bottom end yet.
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Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2105
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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that would be 003 323 571 D, that converter was spec'ed for 1850-1950rpm stall speed when installed on type 3s and 1900-2000rpm when installed on 411s
The one to get would be from a late vanagon I suspect (don't quote me on that) |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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Well finally got the gear set changed over.
Well.... it is an improvement, definitely better at acceleration but not what I was hoping to get.
I did not modify the convertor yet but will to see what improvement that makes.
Before I die this thing will perform the way I want it too. LOL
I'm still torn over the idea of RGB's with mid mount. I really think that would be a nice combo. There is an 63 bus up the road that is waiting for me to tow home for the boxes. |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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That's it, I have committed to RGB's with my 003. Waiting for the boxes as I type this. I will figure a way to attach the hubs to the shortened long axle.
I will take pictures as I go and add them here. This will take a few months seeing I have other irons in the fire.
Next fall/summer I will cut the rear suspension out and mid mount the engine.
Its more work than I'm looking forward to but there is now way I'm climbing Blueberry Hill without more lower end.
Right now (without the parts in hand), I'm thinking splining the shortened axle and installing hubs.
Any ideas from others? |
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jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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I know of a couple of buggies that use the Bus type II automatic transaxles and works well with larger diameter tires. One buggy is in Colorado and used in high elevation (over a mile high) with great results.
The Buses that use a 1700cc type IV engine have a 4.45 R&P ratio, 1800cc type IV engines have a 4.36 R&P ratio, Vanagon trans have a 4.09 R&P ratio.
If you look through this thread it has been recommended by several people that using the type II automatic would be better suited to your use. It would be a lot easier install then your plans of going mid engine.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
I know of a couple of buggies that use the Bus type II automatic transaxles and works well with larger diameter tires. One buggy is in Colorado and used in high elevation (over a mile high) with great results.
The Buses that use a 1700cc type IV engine have a 4.45 R&P ratio, 1800cc type IV engines have a 4.36 R&P ratio, Vanagon trans have a 4.09 R&P ratio.
If you look through this thread it has been recommended by several people that using the type II automatic would be better suited to your use. It would be a lot easier install then your plans of going mid engine. |
Well now thank you for that info. I am on the search for an 010 out of a bus.
I thought I read everything I could about the auto gear options but through the maze of threads I missed that.
Even this info above only really states its a bigger carrier and possibly lower gears but now your info gives me ratios that I can work with.
I'm looking at the bright side, I now own a set of RGB's that if it still wont climb, they will go on as well.
Will update as soon as the bus tranny arrives.
I may as well ask now, will the torque convertor and starter from the 003 mate up? |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Changing final ratio on 003 |
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Well now thank you for that info. I am on the search for an 010 out of a bus.
I may as well ask now, will the torque convertor and starter from the 003 mate up? |
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