Author |
Message |
Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:08 pm Post subject: Hella fix for Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
Went out today and had to put my lights on. When i pulled into a parking spot against a blank wall, I decided to test the highbeams to see the difference and discovered those splashes of light were my highbeams. No, I don't have a working indicator on the dash. Yes, I know I should fix it.
There were headlight relays installed (I ordered Jay Brown's kit but didn't need it). And I have upgraded the bulbs to 100/85w ones.
So when I got home, I did some investigating. This is the voltage at the battery:
This is the voltage at the socket, using both leads, no local ground:
This is with a local ground (the screw that fastens the side marker light):
And this is the highbeams:
Looks like I lose some voltage on the way up to the light socket but the local ground seems to not be a factor. I tested it a couple of times and the difference was sometimes even less that shown here. How do I sort that out? Pull the relays and see what they're getting at the panel? _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers |
|
Back to top |
|
|
IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10250 Location: N. Idaho
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
Just to clarify something confusing. You ordered Jay's kit, then later discovered your van had already had its headlights rewired by a previous owner who installed relays? So you decided you did not need Jay's kit, and did not install it, instead choosing to rely upon the existing headlight wiring work someone else did?
And now you are unhappy with the headlamp output after putting in high wattage bulbs?
Do I have that correct? I ask, because I am confused by the mentioning of Jay's kit, and then that you didn't/don't need it. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
|
Back to top |
|
|
borninabus Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4538 Location: Arizona Highways
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
I wouldn't call a turn signal screw "local" or even a "good" ground.
my headlights are grounded right at the bucket with self tapping sheet metal screws.
cleaned your battery posts and/or main ground straps recently? _________________ 88 Van WBX, A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
them voltages could be a tad higher but if the van js off and your battery is not perfect, you may see low voltages like this. is test ran with or without motor revkng, thus thurning alternator. you may simply have a low battery or as other person mentiined poor battery connection(s)
then measure the voltage drop across the relay, and the ground terminal at bulb to a nearby body panel (ground) measure drop across battery cable ends to battery posts.
you will find the drops someplace. fix them.
for this, measure the battery voltage across the posts when lights are on, the differance of battery voltage at the two pbuld (while light is on) verses what you measure at the bulb will be the total drop, the total is the sum off all the drops across the head lamp circuit loop.
good luck, may you see the light. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dhaavers Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 7757 Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
borninabus wrote: |
I wouldn't call a turn signal screw "local" or even a "good" ground.
my headlights are grounded right at the bucket with self tapping sheet metal screws.
cleaned your battery posts and/or main ground straps recently? |
^^^ x2
Bottom of the battery box is often overlooked, yet a crucial link.
Your battery voltage is low. How many volts from the alternator? _________________ 86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
IdahoDoug wrote: |
Just to clarify something confusing. You ordered Jay's kit, then later discovered your van had already had its headlights rewired by a previous owner who installed relays? So you decided you did not need Jay's kit, and did not install it, instead choosing to rely upon the existing headlight wiring work someone else did?
|
I obviously didn't need to add relays: they were already there. In the conversation I had with Jay when I got his kit, he didn't urge me to install his in place of the others.
IdahoDoug wrote: |
And now you are unhappy with the headlamp output after putting in high wattage bulbs?
|
I continue to be puzzled by the lack of light provided, yes, given that I have relays in place and stronger bulbs. That was why I was curious about how much voltage was getting delivered.
IdahoDoug wrote: |
Do I have that correct? I ask, because I am confused by the mentioning of Jay's kit, and then that you didn't/don't need it. |
That was by way of getting around anyone suggesting I add relays to the headlights as they are already there. I find it helps to provide as much information as possible to forestall glib replies/assumptions.
borninabus wrote: |
cleaned your battery posts and/or main ground straps recently?
|
No, and who knows if that has ever been done. That's why I am wondering what kind of voltage I should see and where it might be lost. Hence the question about testing at the relay.
Grounding at the mounting frame sounds easy enough to test. The screw I used, since it passes through the body, seemed like a reasonable choice but I can try something else. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers
Last edited by Paulbeard on Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
dhaavers wrote: |
Your battery voltage is low. How many volts from the alternator? |
13.8 or so last I looked, when I looking at the house battery the other week. That was what it was getting, not the main battery. I can test that as well. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers |
|
Back to top |
|
|
IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10250 Location: N. Idaho
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
OK - got it. So, I've done a number of lighting upgrades to a variety of vehicles over the years. I have been surprised at how often the relays themselves are the culprit and that includes name brands (Bosch, cough, cough). But the noname relays are just aggriegiously bad. So, I would check the power side of the circuit that's been previously installed, and if not already in place, I'd take the headlamp grounds right to freshly drilled holes at the light buckets. And I'd check the relays themselves as I personally have had a lot of them fail in the last 20 year, where the 20 years before THAT, I'd never seen one fail. Probably the direction other components are going due to offshore production.....
As you probably already knew, bulbs are very sensitive to voltage, and will continue to operate but at levels of output that are disproportionate to the voltage drop. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
The voltage to the battery from the alternator reads 13.86. I think 14 and change is the standard so it looks like I have a place to start. There was no difference at all on the headlight ground, be it bright metal in a screw hole, a protruding screw through the body or the socket itself — 11 and change volts. Both sides, right and left, are the same from the last time I checked that.
I think the ground strap gets looked at first, then test again to see if we are getting good charging voltage. If that works out, test the lights again. If they are still weak, I look at the relays. No idea who made them but it sounds like makes no difference: everything is crap nowadays. You pays your money and takes your chances. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22668 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
Putting in relays is just covering up wiring problems.
Find the bad wires and replace them
By the way, a battery at 12.06 V is in need of charging replacing as a start point. _________________ .ssS! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
Abscate wrote: |
Putting in relays is just covering up wiring problems.
Find the bad wires and replace them
|
From what I have learned, it means doing things the way they should have been done, specifically with regard to headlights and the load that goes through the switch without a relay in place. I'll let more learned folks defend that position.
Abscate wrote: |
By the way, a battery at 12.06 V is in need of charging replacing as a start point. |
That's as may be but not my first problem. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7922 Location: Arizona
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
Abscate wrote: |
Putting in relays is just covering up wiring problems |
Yeah, and the problem started at the factory:
A) 16 gauge wires
B) No relays for the headlight circuit
C) Power is routed to the headlights through the headlight switch
All of the above results in a voltage loss at the headlights, hence adding relays (something VW has been doing to their cars since the Golf 3 or 4 era). The following before/after was taken with the engine off (apologies, it's a Cabriolet, which I added relays to ages ago and I didn't bother doing the same before/after proof with the van):
^That was done without cutting, splicing, or replacing the factory wiring. My van's lights looked those on the left when I first bought it... driving down a pitch black highway and couldn't see 2 feet in front of it; the aux lights were actually brighter. The very first "modification" I did to it was add headlight relays. _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10250 Location: N. Idaho
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
Paul,
One question I might ask is do the lights get brighter when the engine is revved? That may indicate one issue over another. I'll also do things like turn on heavy load items like blower fans and watch the headlight pattern react. Some variance is normal, but you may learn something reportable by doing a few things like that for input.
Doug _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
|
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
IdahoDoug wrote: |
One question I might ask is do the lights get brighter when the engine is revved? |
Who can tell? They're literally that dim, I can't see them in daylight. I tried to aim them once and realized it was useless to get that close to the wall I was using.
I'm thinking the ground strap is my first order of business, given the state of the battery charging. That will be a task for a dry afternoon this week. Been leafing through the site here so I know what I am looking for. I wonder if I shouldn't just get one and replace it on general principles. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
|
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
Paulbeard wrote: |
IdahoDoug wrote: |
One question I might ask is do the lights get brighter when the engine is revved? |
Who can tell? They're literally that dim, I can't see them in daylight. I tried to aim them once and realized it was useless to get that close to the wall I was using.
I'm thinking the ground strap is my first order of business, given the state of the battery charging. That will be a task for a dry afternoon this week. Been leafing through the site here so I know what I am looking for. I wonder if I shouldn't just get one and replace it on general principles. |
before replacing tbe ground strap, find the drop across it with the lights on. if the drop is very low, no sense touching the strap. fix this smart, not shot gun style. read the drop across each component individualy, and fix where the big drops are.
Dont guess, instrad be sure of what the problem is..
do you knw how to measure the drops across each component? _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
|
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
First step is to cut the ground wires from the lights and ground them directly to the body with sheet metal screws. When I did that I gained 1 VDC at the lamp socket.
Then check your other grounds: battery, engine and transaxle. _________________ '84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
|
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
Jake de Villiers wrote: |
First step is to cut the ground wires from the lights and ground them directly to the body with sheet metal screws. When I did that I gained 1 VDC at the lamp socket.
Then check your other grounds: battery, engine and transaxle. |
may be a great idea, but lets do this systematically and measure the drops across all the components before we go changing things. whats the drop between the groind lug on the bulb holder to the body? if it is a volt, then for sure the ground needs to be addressed. what the drop on the battery ground strap, the drop at the fuse(s) etc....
take a systematic approach to this, measure the drops with your voltmeter, it is easy as pie to do. if you dont know the correct way, ask. this technique you will find very useful for trouble sshootin, it takes the guess work out and allows you to know the worst offenders to fix first.
Once you learn this technique, a light bulb will turn on in your head an ah ha moment, and you will be wanting to measure drops on eavery circuit just for the heck of it. it is easy useful and fun to do. measure the voltage drops!!!!! you will then know for sure what needs fixing. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
|
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
bluebus86 wrote: |
Jake de Villiers wrote: |
First step is to cut the ground wires from the lights and ground them directly to the body with sheet metal screws. When I did that I gained 1 VDC at the lamp socket.
Then check your other grounds: battery, engine and transaxle. |
may be a great idea, but lets do this systematically and measure the drops across all the components before we go changing things. whats the drop between the groind lug on the bulb holder to the body? if it is a volt, then for sure the ground needs to be addressed. what the drop on the battery ground strap, the drop at the fuse(s) etc....
|
Blah, blah. The data is in the OP's first post. _________________ '84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
|
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
Jake de Villiers wrote: |
First step is to cut the ground wires from the lights and ground them directly to the body with sheet metal screws. When I did that I gained 1 VDC at the lamp socket.
Then check your other grounds: battery, engine and transaxle. |
Yeah, I checked that against a screw through the body and the screw hole that holds the headlight frame. Not real difference: hundreds of a volt. The ground strap looks like a good place to start. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers |
|
Back to top |
|
|
greebly Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2009 Posts: 966 Location: Here and now
|
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
|
|
If both lights are dim, and once worked assuming the relay kit was installed properly initially, you can rule out relays, fuses, crimp connections to the relay kit Headlight switch, bright/dim switch and wires to the headlamps. As each bulb has it's own path it is unlikely that both would be affected. .Remaining would be ground at battery and at chassis to bulbs or the battery weak under load. 12 volts is a discharged battery. A healthy battery fully charged will be at least 13 - 13.2 volts.
Edit*** The main supply wire from the battery to the Fuse panel can be restrictive and create a voltage drop that would affect both lamps. but the 12 volts you measured at the battery indicates it is weak. was this with the lamps energized? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|