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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16503 Location: Brookeville, MD
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chase4food Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2016 Posts: 636 Location: PNW im Amerika
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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greebly wrote: |
A healthy battery fully charged will be at least 13 - 13.2 volts.
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With all the autos I'd ever own, not once have I observed anything near this range. The range is more like with the engine running and the healthy battery being charged. Here in Vanagon land most of us still have the good old fashion flooded battery as the starting and running battery. The OP made no mention if the engine is running of the voltage measured at the battery, but I infer the engine is off, but the battery is being loaded by the headlights. I have seen the battery goes near 12V in this situations.
one of many flooded battery discharge chart
_________________ - Vince 飲食玩睡
what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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greebly Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2009 Posts: 966 Location: Here and now
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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A load tester will indicate in it's instructions that it is ineffective at testing a battery at 12 volts. It is not charged. My trickle charger will maintain 13.2 volts. That is fully charged. The battery without external source will settle to 12.6. I asked him if the voltage measurement was under load of the lights being on. The OP needs to clarify this. I maintain if he is sitting at 12 volts with no heavy load, his battery is weak. |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16503 Location: Brookeville, MD
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chase4food Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2016 Posts: 636 Location: PNW im Amerika
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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I would not be too alarmed to see the group 41 battery at 12.0 V with all hi/lo beams on and not being charged. If the OP has 80/100W hi/low plus 100W hi all on. This is roughly 46A of current being pulled from the battery at 12V. All battery starts to deteriorate the day you put it into service.
Fine print:
Auto headlight are designed to operate when the alternator is charging, so I infer the wattage rating is likely for the nominal voltage closer to 13.4V. Still, my calculated current magnitude is in the right ballpark.
Go test your Vanagon and see what you get in same situation. _________________ - Vince 飲食玩睡
what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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chase4food Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2016 Posts: 636 Location: PNW im Amerika
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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While the OP first post did not expressly state clearly if the measurement at the battery that read circa 12.1V, the other measurements in the photo as well as the context is quite clear that he had the hi/lo beams on. The low voltage at the battery can only suggest the engine is not running, or the alternator is bad.
To far out to the limb now... _________________ - Vince 飲食玩睡
what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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In all the tests (except where noted, checking the charging voltage) the engine was off.
None of this is good news, is it? I was originally concerned about the aux battery and now my main one might be dying? :2gunfire:
I picked up a ground strap from FLAPS, assuming that the existing one is toast. I figure I should replace it regardless, just to verify the connections are all solid.
Still starts with enthusiasm, so maybe a hard start relay was already added or the Tiico is just easier to crank. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers |
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Merian Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014 Posts: 5212 Location: Orygun
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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take both batteries out and have them tested at a battery shop (not an auto parts store)
the tester should be a large cart-based machine, not a handheld thing |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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I find myself with a free couple of hours and a ground strap from FLAPS but what's all this about about not disconnecting the ground point from the body (Bentley 97.6)? How are you supposed to do this? And what's the special bolt used to connect the ground strap? I thought this was a fairly straightforward task but now I wonder. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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Dampcamper Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2013 Posts: 788 Location: Rainy Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:15 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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Grounding straps are not rocket science, you want a very heavy conductor (or two) between your engine/transaxle assembly and the chassis. OK to use flat braided strap, also OK to use heavy flexible wire if installed so it can flex without subjecting the wire at the terminals to stress or causing fatigue. Since we are passing DC (not radio frequencies) here it makes little difference what shape the copper is, so long as there is a lot of it. If your existing strap is in good shape (not broken strands or all green) then leave it in place and add a #4 cable somewhere else between engine/trans assembly and chassis. No harm at all in this.
And I like to use toothed lockwashers between the terminal and the chassis or transmission case to get lots of contact points.
Your 85/100 watt lights are going to draw 3 times the amperage of the stock lamps. Since the original wiring was barely adequate it would make sense to increase the size of the wires and improve their ground attachment preemptively. A short run of heavier wire to a good chassis ground will be way better than the long run to the grounding trees on the OE skinny wire.
If you have Jay's relay kit it might be worth installing it, following his directions step by step, just to know that the installation is correct. You can't assume the PO did the job right or the kit was set up properly to minimize voltage drop. It is OK to look for voltage drop but some things are pretty easy to predict, too small grounding wires is one of them.
With incandescent lamps (including quartz/halogen lamps) a 10% drop in voltage will cause about a 30% drop in light output so it is important to minimize the voltage drop in all parts of the circuit. Good news, though, is that a 10% reduction in voltage just about doubles the life of the bulb.
You may also want to invest in high-temperature socket assemblies with those big lamps. Most of that 100 watts turns into heat which will cook your stock lamp sockets. Check with Jay for those. |
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Mellow Yellow 74 Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014 Posts: 1615 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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Have you thought about charging your battery and then checking your headlights at night? If they are ok with a charged battery you will know it's not a headlight or battery problem, then if they go dim after you drive for a while that would indicate it's a charging problem. _________________ 1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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No one would ever confuse one of these bricks for a rocket, no.
So let's examine what I think I know:
• neither battery is fully charged
• the alternator is about a year old
• PO's installation of the GW aux kit may have been part of the repeated blown alternators as shown in receipts: I know it was done wrong
• battery ground strap is probably oem/OG
• given this is an engine swap, the transmission strap is likely not oem/OG
• the relay kit is probably ok, as the van was upgraded in '03 for a Little Old Lady (still have the window cards reading "for sale," etc) who wanted to head out for the wilderness.
So a charging/continuity problem looks likely. Charging the battery might confirm it. If I take it to FLAPS and they get it to 13 and change and it doesn't hold, I have a weak charging circuit. Given a new alternator, do I look at the rear ground strap? How do I test the alternator's output while running without screwing anything up? _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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chase4food wrote: |
While the OP first post did not expressly state clearly if the measurement at the battery that read circa 12.1V, the other measurements in the photo as well as the context is quite clear that he had the hi/lo beams on. The low voltage at the battery can only suggest the engine is not running, or the alternator is bad.
To far out to the limb now... |
or the battery is bad. dont forget that, or the wires have high resistance, dont forget that either. any of these and others could cause a low voltage reading even with a working alternator. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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Dampcamper wrote: |
Grounding straps are not rocket science, you want a very heavy conductor (or two) between your engine/transaxle assembly and the chassis. OK to use flat braided strap, also OK to use heavy flexible wire if installed so it can flex without subjecting the wire at the terminals to stress or causing fatigue. Since we are passing DC (not radio frequencies) here it makes little difference what shape the copper is, so long as there is a lot of it. If your existing strap is in good shape (not broken strands or all green) then leave it in place and add a #4 cable somewhere else between engine/trans assembly and chassis. No harm at all in this.
And I like to use toothed lockwashers between the terminal and the chassis or transmission case to get lots of contact points.
Your 85/100 watt lights are going to draw 3 times the amperage of the stock lamps. Since the original wiring was barely adequate it would make sense to increase the size of the wires and improve their ground attachment preemptively. A short run of heavier wire to a good chassis ground will be way better than the long run to the grounding trees on the OE skinny wire.
If you have Jay's relay kit it might be worth installing it, following his directions step by step, just to know that the installation is correct. You can't assume the PO did the job right or the kit was set up properly to minimize voltage drop. It is OK to look for voltage drop but some things are pretty easy to predict, too small grounding wires is one of them.
With incandescent lamps (including quartz/halogen lamps) a 10% drop in voltage will cause about a 30% drop in light output so it is important to minimize the voltage drop in all parts of the circuit. Good news, though, is that a 10% reduction in voltage just about doubles the life of the bulb.
You may also want to invest in high-temperature socket assemblies with those big lamps. Most of that 100 watts turns into heat which will cook your stock lamp sockets. Check with Jay for those. |
ditto that on the sockets. my stock ones died using stock watt bulbs. I found some high temp sockets on amazon .com and they are working great, ceramic base rather than plastic, much lower voltage drop across them verse the heat damaged stock ones. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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Paulbeard wrote: |
No one would ever confuse one of these bricks for a rocket, no.
So let's examine what I think I know:
• neither battery is fully charged
• the alternator is about a year old
• PO's installation of the GW aux kit may have been part of the repeated blown alternators as shown in receipts: I know it was done wrong
• battery ground strap is probably oem/OG
• given this is an engine swap, the transmission strap is likely not oem/OG
• the relay kit is probably ok, as the van was upgraded in '03 for a Little Old Lady (still have the window cards reading "for sale," etc) who wanted to head out for the wilderness.
So a charging/continuity problem looks likely. Charging the battery might confirm it. If I take it to FLAPS and they get it to 13 and change and it doesn't hold, I have a weak charging circuit. Given a new alternator, do I look at the rear ground strap? How do I test the alternator's output while running without screwing anything up? |
lots of autoparts stores will do a free test of your battery. worth doing if your in doubt about it. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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I tested the alternator/battery and here's what I got:
W/o engine running:
Battery shows 12.8v without lights on
Battery shows 11.8 with headlights on (just the lows)
With engine on:
13.95 v at the battery w/o lights
13.65v with lights
Just checked voltage at the light sockets, low beams on, engine off:
11.8 v at the battery
11.3 at the headlight socket
With the engine running @ idle:
13.6 v at the battery with low beams on
12.5 at the headlight socket
12.1 at the highbeam socket
The voltage did flicker and flutter a bit at the headlight socket, around .5v.
FWIW, local grounds made no difference. I used the bright metal of the screw hole that holds the light frame and got with a hundredth of the voltage of the ground at the plug. Probably a better idea overall but it's not a factor in this particular situation.
The alternator shows 14.1v without lights, 13.9 with lights. This was at idle as I don't have three hands or enough leg to rev to 2000 rpm.
The alternator/regulator is what I am curious about. The alternator is new, as of a year ago. The regulator doesn't look to be new and I don't think it was replaced at the time. Replace it? Get an adjustable or just the regular kind?
The cabling looks pretty beat. If Jay Brown still makes that starter harness kit, I may swap that in for peace of mind. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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greebly Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2009 Posts: 966 Location: Here and now
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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I guess mine is charging to 105% THis is a brand new group 41R battery bought at Costco for $72.00 fully charged. the first picture is with the van off, the second with it running. * note I have a 1.8T with a 90 amp alternator and brand new regulator.
Engine running
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MidwestDrifter Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2012 Posts: 769 Location: Kicking Around Australia
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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greebly wrote: |
I guess mine is charging to 105% THis is a brand new group 41R battery bought at Costco for $72.00 fully charged. the first picture is with the van off, the second with it running. * note I have a 1.8T with a 90 amp alternator and brand new regulator.
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14.8V is too high for normal alternator output... You must have to add water really often....
The resting voltage of a battery will often be quite high, especially after being charged to 14.8V. This is likely a surface charge which will dissipate in a few hours, or if you put a small load on the battery. _________________ 2004 Dodge/Mercedes Sprinter (Custom Camper)
2000 Jetta TDI
1982 Diesel Westy W/ ABA I4 hybrid (Sold)
Epic Road Tripping since 08/05/12 | http://VagariesAbound.blogspot.com/
My Current Build | http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41215 |
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greebly Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2009 Posts: 966 Location: Here and now
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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Yep, the battery had a trickle charger on it and it was just removed, the alternator voltage is high because the battery is fully charged, it is not loading it at all, I plan on keeping an eye on the new regulator but am confident after a load is applied and the battery floats down it will also drop down. 14.8 will cause some oxidization and maybe a little out gassing, 14.5 is desirable. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Dangerously dim headlights w/ relays… |
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greebly wrote: |
Yep, the battery had a trickle charger on it and it was just removed, the alternator voltage is high because the battery is fully charged, it is not loading it at all, I plan on keeping an eye on the new regulator but am confident after a load is applied and the battery floats down it will also drop down. 14.8 will cause some oxidization and maybe a little out gassing, 14.5 is desirable. |
one must also wonder how percise the meter is. when was it last calibrated? _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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