Damaged Pushrod

[ztnoo]

I know this is basically an engine related question, but since it was found on a '73 Thing I'm working on, I thought I'd try posting here first.

Upon removal of the pushrods and tubes for tube and seal replacement, I discovered a damaged (worn) pushrod.
I had earlier noted some dented engine tin of the front lower left side close to number three cylinder, but didn't think too much about it until the tin was removed to facilitate tube removal and repainting of the tin itself.
A heavily dented pushrod tube then revealed itself and then when the corresponding pushrod was removed, a defined area of wear was noted at a point approximately one forth of the way from the end of the pushrod, directly in the area of the dent in the tube.
Obviously it been caused by the dented tube, but likely wasn't wearing much any more. I believe most of the wear has already occurred
I my view is is on the worst possible pushrod it could be ..number three exhaust, the one that typically runs the hottest of all the exhaust valves.
I have my idea about what needs to be done, but i'm looking for some commentary and advice from the forum.
What's your analysis and solution?

picture: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=204646

ztnoo

[TimGud]

Well I would pull the head, replace the pushrod tubes/seals and the bent pushrod. if anything a bent pushrod should have caused excess valve lash till it was adjusted up. Might want to throw in a straight pushrod, and adjust the valve lash, then do a compression check first before pulling the head.

[Glenn]

It's a no brainer.

Replace all the pushrod tubes and install new pushrods.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

[ztnoo]

Tim & Glenn,
Thanks for your inputs. I guess I neglected to state I was replacing all the tubes and seals when I discovered this problem with one pushrod.
I have admitted several times on this forum I'm a newbie, novice, greenhorn. I had a lots of things thrown at me in a short time frame working on three Things.
I really didn't have intentions of putting the worn pushrod back in.
The dilemma is how far do I go?
I don't own this vehicle, I'm just working on it, and discovering all sorts of little glitches along the way.
A real educational experience in practical mechanics.

The problem:
I'm not the owner.
This car, with 45,00 miles on it, has only been driven about a thousand miles in the last ten years. Of course, part of the reason it was never driven much is that it didn't run very well.
It undoubtedly will be driven more if I can get it running more reliably and smoothly, yet it's not likely to have 2000 miles put on it this summer, if I do achieve my goal.
Mileage added to the vehicle will be minimal.

What about just replacing the one worn pushrod?
What problems might that solution cause?
As I said, it is on the one exhaust valve I view as the real problem area of any VW engine, #3.
I know new pushrods can be purchased for $3-4 each. Not a lot of money.
Do you still advise me to replace ALL of the pushrods, and if so, what are your specific reasons for doing so?
I maybe a "no brainer", but I have always believed asking about something from someone more experienced and by reading, is the only true way to learn other than by making and learning from my own mistakes.

Thanks,
ztnoo

[TimGud]

You should be able to replace the one bent pushrod being as it was caused by hitting something or someone using a jack in a very inappropriate place. What I would do is remove the bent pushrod,remove bent pushrod tube, install a straight pushrod,adjust valve lash, do compression check to make sure more work isn't needed. That way you know what you're getting into before you pull it apart. If good then pull the head and replace the pushrod tubes and seals. I don't believe Glenn was saying you are a no brainer, just replacing the pushrods being the no brainer. It's not his style to do so outside the rants.

[Buckly]

You know what to do. We know what you need to do, replace the push rod and tube. If you think the other rods look as though their worn, replace them. I've reused tubes a number of times, as long as there's nothing wrong with them, just pull them a little longer.
I feeling as though the real problem is, if you want to remove the head or not, (a replacement tube kit is available that does not require removing the head). If you remove the head, how much farther should you go, like slide a cylinder off and have a look at the rings? What if things don't look so hot after sliding the two cylinders off and doing a wiggle check on the rods for side clearence?
These are all not so easy questions to answer, and only you can. Hows the end play when you pull and push on the crank pulley? Have you checked the compression? If you've got bad compresion why do any thing to the engine? Why was it parked and left to sit in the first place?
_________________
Cool runnins,
_______________________
Bucky

[ztnoo]

You know what to do. We know what you need to do, replace the push rod and tube. If you think the other rods look as though their worn, replace them. I've reused tubes a number of times, as long as there's nothing wrong with them, just pull them a little longer.

Well maybe I haven't made myself exactly clear....yet.
The engine is out of the vehicle...numero uno.
If you have been following my threads, you'll understand why.
We fully intended to replace ALL tubes and seals while we had the mill out.
One head was off for stud r & r.
The other had to come off anyway......we had solid replacement tubes, not telescoping tubes.

The kicker is the worn pushrod in the first quarter of the length on #3 exhaust.
It's not bent, bowed, or fractured. It's worn....caused by a damaged tube.

It's intersting to me no one has directly asnwered my question about just replacing ONE PUSHROD.
If you are wondering why............I'm asking again.........back up five paces and reread the thread.


I feeling as though the real problem is, if you want to remove the head or not, (a replacement tube kit is available that does not require removing the head). If you remove the head, how much farther should you go, like slide a cylinder off and have a look at the rings? What if things don't look so hot after sliding the two cylinders off and doing a wiggle check on the rods for side clearence?

I understand what you are hinting at....but it ain't gonna happen right now.......this whole deal is a freebie for me.......but a total teardown and rebuild it not in the cards or stars for now.

These are all not so easy questions to answer, and only you can. Hows the end play when you pull and push on the crank pulley? Have you checked the compression? If you've got bad compresion why do any thing to the engine? Why was it parked and left to sit in the first place?

Well things happen out on the farm.....lots of other machines.....events......and ......financial considerations infringe upon the sometimes dreamlike world of Thing restoration.
Cie la vie.

Anyone care to address my question: "Do you still advise me to replace ALL of the pushrods, and if so, what are your specific reasons for doing so?"

Thanks for the input,
ztnoo

[edgy]

With the head off and a spark plug in each hole, pour penetrating oil in the cylinder head. If it leaks through into the manifold or exhaust port, grind the valves and seats. Probably need to put in new guides as well. It is probably cheaper to buy rebuilt heads. If it doesn't leak and you are not breaking down the engine to put in a cam and followers, just replace the bent rod with a straight one. If it is slightly longer, not a problem, the valve adjustment will be slightly different.

If you really don't know this, why are you doing the work? If you put on new cylinders without putting in new bearings, you are wasting money. If you put in new bearings without turning the crank, you are wasting time. If the engine needs rebuilt, do it all. If not, just repair what is broken.
_________________
62 Single Cab (Work Truck)
63 Bungartz Tractor VW powered

[ztnoo]

edgy,
Where did I say anywhere or anything about new cylinders?
Are you reading between lines on your monitor?

Once AGAIN...the pushrod isn't bent, its worn at one quarter of its length.

Look at the pic:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=204646

Are my descriptions really THAT incomprehensible?
¿Hable Inglés?

ztnoo

[thevanillaninja]

When you pull off the head to replace pushrods and tubes it's just as easy to put one new in as it is to put in four new ones. Might as well pull the other side too, just to check to make sure all is well. The longest part of this entire process is torque'ing down the heads. Does that answer your question?
_________________
1967 Zenith Blue Type 1 "Elaine"
Bought in 2004

Stored for 4 1/2 years and soon to be resurrected..
'67 beetle

[ztnoo]

Hey everybody........both heads were off...and retorqued...all tubes and seals have already been replaced......done deal.
I still ask the question:
Do you still advise me to replace ALL of the pushrods, and if so, what are your specific reasons for doing so?

ztnoo

[thevanillaninja]

[edgy]

You are asking for advice yet don't sound like you know what you are doing. If you removed both heads and didn't look at the cylinders you missed a good chance. If you didn't bother to look at the valves, you missed a good chance. You are so interested in a worn push rod that you are overlooking the fact that you have the engine sitting on a work bench. Just how long do you think the engine would have run with the worn pushrod? I have never changed one and I've been working on VW engines for a long time. I always found that as long as I kept the valves adjusted, I didn't have to worry anout it. But once I have an engine out of the car and torn down, I have had lots of valves ground, I've had lots of crankshafts turned, I've replaced lots of rings, pistons and cylinders. I've never found the need to change a push rod. Get the point yet? Even if the push rod did fail, you'd know it like really fast. It would start to sound like a valve was loose.

If you are building a top end racing engine, replace all thh push rods, the cam followers and the rocker arms. If you are building a high end engine for a major restoration, change all the push rods. If you want to drive a VW as a daily driver, go to the junk yard and get a push rod out of a different engine. Better yet, give me your address, I'll send you one.

Did you lubricate the starter bushing? What about check the clutch?
_________________
62 Single Cab (Work Truck)
63 Bungartz Tractor VW powered

[ztnoo]

edgy,
Thank you for your very kind and generous offer of a used pushrod.
I already have one lined up.

I want to apologize if I sounded angry or miffed answering you. Its not my intent to be rude or irritating here on the forum.
I have written quite a bit about the situation I'm in concerning three Things I'm working on simultaneously.
Maybe you haven't read my background posts about my activities. If not, that's fine and maybe you have little or no interest in doing so.

It's just that I often find someone jumps into a thread I've posted and really has very little clue about the background of the situation.
That causes me to repeat myself, often many times, trying to provide an accurate picture and description of a specific problem.
Then of course, there's always different opinions about what others think I should be doing to resolve a problem.
At times, this adds to my problem of trying to determine an acceptable repair.

This vehicle has been driven minimally, and maintained minimally as well, over ten years of ownership (not me, a friend of mine). Since this car isn't a daily driver and never will be, I'm only attempting to address obvious problems and there were lots of little nagging ones from the start. I have to draw the line somewhere, get the thing back together, and go from there. My approach is to address specific problems, not a general broad brushstroke covering everything imaginable on the car. We can address other items later, if they occur, because we have already addressed some very blatant ones.
i.e. main seal replacement; pushrod tubes and seal replacement; a couple of loose head studs reinserted, torqued, and Threadlocker applied; 5 bad exhaust studs removed, replaced, and Threadlocker applied; heads re-torqued to spec; and a much needed general clean up of the entire block make locating any future problems much easier.
btw...the valves look fine.

Previously posted threads:
Three Things in Hoosierland
CV Joint Bolt Torque Specs?
Generator stand louvered gasket?
Fuel Delivery Problems
Exhaust Stud R & R?
What Is This On The Bellhousing?
Temporary Shop/Cleanup Pushrod Tube Seals For Block & He
Paint on engine tin?

Thanks again for your offer.
I appreciate your input.

Regards,
ztnoo

[TimGud]

Ok it's not bent, it has been rubbed by the tube. Same answer I gave earlier applies. Replace the pushrod. (one pushrod) It's a no brainer.