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Alternator Type IV (4)
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:02 am    Post subject: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

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[url=http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=615013&highlight=alternator+type]Alternator Type IV (4)[/url]


ALTERNATOR TYPE IV
55A alternator, VW 021-903-023-A, Bosch 0 120 400 719, Bosch Short AL75X.
70A alternator, VW 021-903-023-E, Bosch 0 120 450 001/002, Bosch Short AL108X.
Voltage Regulator 55A & 70A use the same Regulator 043 903 803 B.
Alternator Wire Harness for AL75X 55A Alt., 1972 to 1977, 021 971 349 F
Alternator Wire Harness for AL75X 55A Alt., 1978 to 1979, 029 971 349 A
Alternator Wire Harness for AL108X 70A Alt. ??????????????????????????

REBUILT ALTERNATORS ARE SHORTING OUT ON TYPE 4's

Rebuilt Alternators have been shorting out and frying the Alt. wiring. What is causing this is the B+ terminals are too long and are shorting out on the Intake cover. Or the necessary gaskets and insulators are missing.

Make sure you have the following: (use these in a pinch)
The rubber boot that goes over the Big Red B+ wire (spark plug boot will work)
The square fiber "Garrolite" insulator under the B+ terminal that the suppressor condenser #19 is connected to. (piece of plastic cut to size)
Put a piece of electrical tape over the B+ for good measure.
Intake cover gasket (cut out of gasket material or cardboard)
Rubber grommet where the wires go through the Intake cover. (piece of rubber hose split and taped in place)
Two rubber bumpers on the outer edge of the Alt body (pieces of rubber hose will work)

This is a good example of what it should look like when you are done.
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Resulting in this.
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The other B+ can also short out against the Intake cover as well.
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The Fix
1. Mount the wires to the Alternator.
2. Use a hacksaw and cut the studs off flush with the mounting nuts.
3. Make a new Intake cover gasket. Illustration 58 #36. I know yours is missing.
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4. Replace the protective boot on the B+ wire.
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http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/9-007.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/9-008.jpg


The type 4 Alternator came in two varieties, 55A & 70A.
The Elbows came in three versions #42.
55A Elbow 021 903 655 B small hole in fan housing 72-74
55A Elbow 021 903 655 D big hole in fan housing 75-79
70A Elbow 022 903 655 option 70A 75-79

It is hard to tell from the picture, but the round part of the Elbow on the left, that goes into the fan housing. Is smaller than the Elbow in the middle.
<Left 021 903 655 B small hole - Middle 021 903 655 D big hole - Right 022 903 655 option 70A>
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70A Elbow 022 903 655 optional 75-79
Note: 70A connection built into the Alt. housing, is bigger and round.
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Some info.
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Two cover plates used. Early & Late.
Two cover plate gaskets used. Early & Late.

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Correct me if I am wrong.
Left=55 amp cover plate. 72-75
Right=55&70 amp cover plate. 76-79

vw76westy wrote:
i know that this is the plastic gasket
that gos between the alt and engine tin
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but where, how does this gasket go ???
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is one for the 55amp and the other for 70amp ??
or does one go behind the other

germansupplyscott wrote:
the top one is '76-'79, the bottom one is '72-'75.


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022 903 203 Alternator seal

LeeE wrote:
Here's a crude template. It's in the Samba gallery.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=913618.jpg
You should be able to print it on 8 1/2 x 11 paper
I made one from a Coleman fuel can.
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Quote:
Karl wrote:
Question: Does anyone know if this is the correct p/n for the tin-seal-ring for an alternator 022-903-203?

Yes, IF you use it with the replacement 022 alt cover plate. The 021 plate used a different plastic seal ring. If memory serves me: the 021 plastic ring has a raised edge on it to fit in the hole. and is NLA. The 022 ring is flat and has a locking 'tab' to hold it in place at the upper adjustment bolt. The big hole is 2 different sizes between the 021 and 022. You cannot mis-match the rings......

From the Bus Boys site:

K. 021-119-281U Alternator Coverplate, Used 1972 to 1974
K. 022-119-281 Alternator Coverplate, New 1972 to 1979

Note: When using the 022-119-281 plate as a replacement on 1972 to 1974 models, the plastic gasket for the Alternator must be replaced with newer style - order 022-903-203.


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72-75

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Adjustment cover plate - 021 119 295
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Alternator sealing ring and adjustment cover plate
lostorbit
A couple of NLA parts that are hard to find. Luckily, I scored both from The Samba classifieds.

Part numbers in case you're looking for some:
Alternator Seal - 022 903 203
Adjustment cover plate - 021 119 295

Custom Bus Alternator Coverplate

Elbow, Alternator Air Exhaust, 55amp Alt
Elbow, Alternator Air Exhaust, 70amp Alt

Thanks to Mayor Ratwell
70A Alternators

Alt. Cover Plate (Karl von Salzen)

Alternator cover plate
You need the plastic seal.
022 119 281U Plastic seal 72-74
022-903-203 Plastic seal with new cover plate is 022-903-203

Alternator Sealing Ring Bus '76-'79

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http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/9-007.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/9-008.jpg

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Voltage Regulator 55A & 70A use the same Regulator Prt# 043 903 803 B.
021 971 349 F Wire Harness for AL75X 55A Alternator, 1972 to 1977
029 971 349 A Wire Harness for AL75X 55A Alternator, 1978 to 1979

busdaddy wrote:
Close, the 55A & 70A reg is the same but the harness is different (the end that plugs into the alt.).


ALTERNATOR BRACKETS
021 256 304 A Alternator Bracket Bus 72-74 & 79
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021 256 304 ALTERNATOR BRACKET For T2 75-78
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Note: fiberglass rectangled shaped insulator pad under wire connection.
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Installed Rebuilt alternator Wiring fried


Link


ratwell wrote:
To link to this post copy and paste
Code:
[url=https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=607658#607658]Alternator Part Numbers Type 4[/url]


021-903-023A was the alternator installed into the 72 bus.
021-903-023F was the last 55A version installed.

021-903-023 is Bosch 13030 which xrefs to these units:

0-120-400-615
0-120-400-660
0-120-400-661
0-120-400-671
0-120-400-672
0-120-400-719 <- a ha!
0-120-400-721
0-120-400-726
0-120-400-727
0-120-400-730
0-120-400-731
0-120-400-893 <- are you sure you got the number right?
0-120-400-894
0-120-400-895
0-120-400-896

These are the VW numbers that unit matches:

021-903-023
021-903-023A
021-903-023B
021-903-023F
022-903-023
022-903-023A
023-903-022

021-903-023E was the 70A version. I'm pretty sure the 55A alternator can be used form 72-79 although the 70A buses will have a different alternator harness plug:

The 70A version, Bosch 14062 matches:

0-120-450-001
0-120-450-002


Last edited by Tcash on Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:18 am; edited 34 times in total
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this, hopefully you have prevented multiple breakdowns and also cleared up a lot of confusion by doing so.

For what it is worth I have just snipped the studs off with horseshoe nail pliers.

https://www.google.com/search?q=horseshoe+nail+pliers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Thanks for posting this, hopefully you have prevented multiple breakdowns and also cleared up a lot of confusion by doing so.

For what it is worth I have just snipped the studs off with horseshoe nail pliers.

https://www.google.com/search?q=horseshoe+nail+pliers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


Thank You
Now why would I think you would have such a tool.
Happy Holidays
Tcash
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again...Thank you...your due diligence is much appreciated. You are a true asset to the VW community. Keep up the good work....your posts will help many people in the future.
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thewalrus
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just did a 55A Alternator swap last weekend. I wish I had seen this thread first but thinking about it, the B+ Terminal on the new Alternator didn't catch my eye as being too long. Maybe after feedback they changed the bolt length?

I'd also add that I swapped the thin, rectangular piece of plastic that was originally mounted between the body/base of the Alternator and the B+ Terminal:
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Gib_Gas
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same thing happened to me last year. The new alt terminal stud was too long and melted my alternator wiring harness. Had to replace most of the wiring in that harness as I couldnt find one for sale.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some hungry attorney needs to start a class action suit over the too long studs. A lot of people have had wiring harnesses burn up, alternators fail, been stuck in the boonies, etc. over this issue. I suspect there have been quite a few bus fires over this and maybe a wreck to three.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. There needs to be a better feedback from us to them manufacturers. Heck, the LEAST they could do is slip in a piece of paper warning buyers.
"due to the wide range of applications this alternator is designed for, you may need to shorten the output posts if you alternator has a cooling cover . . . "

While we here:

Use a big screwdriver against the nut on the alternator pulley and use the big boss provided for your convenience, sticking out at the corner of the fan housing as a fulcrum. STOP mangling these poor alternator tins!
Colin

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Zen Bus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

Sign me up for the petition or whatever!!

I think this just happened to me, minutes ago. This weekend: replaced clutch disk, oil cooler gaskets, alternator, and alt. wiring harness. I noticed B+ was touching the cooling plate cover, so I ground it down and put electrical tape over it. I'm guessing it wasn't enough...

It sat for two nights and I drove to work this morning, everything looked good (I have a volt meter on my main battery). Get to work, back of bus is smoking, open the engine compartment and the new harness is melted to s**t. (Thank the gods - no fire!)

I'll look in my Bentley and around on here, but anyone know the gauges of those wires off hand or have link? I imaging my night is going to be made up of pulling the alternator and putting together a new harness so I can make it to Buses by the Bridge on Thursday [crosses fingers]
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Last edited by Zen Bus on Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

I would suggest buying a new harness in the long run, but for now #8 gauge is going to work for the big wire and anything larger than a #18 for the smaller wire.
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Zen Bus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

Thanks Wildthings. Will definitely buy one for the long run, unfortunately no one in town stocks new ones so I'd have to overnight it. I'm hoping to leave tomorrow night for my trip.

EDIT: There are no new ones in town (Phoenix, AZ) but Blair & Sons had a used one in pretty good shape for $20. Just bought that.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

On the topic of frying the wiring, anybody have an opinion on if I've got enough of a gap here between the B+ bolt and they cover plate.? A small hole was melted into the plate from where it contacted. I widened it and cleaned it up a bit. There's about about 2/10 of a centimeter between the bolt and the plate. What do you think, and I good?. Hate to put it all back in and have it fry the wires (and my bus!) again.

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[/img]
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

Zen Bus wrote:
On the topic of frying the wiring, anybody have an opinion on if I've got enough of a gap here between the B+ bolt and they cover plate.? A small hole was melted into the plate from where it contacted. I widened it and cleaned it up a bit. There's about about 2/10 of a centimeter between the bolt and the plate. What do you think, and I good?. Hate to put it all back in and have it fry the wires (and my bus!) again.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/img]


A couple of mm should be fine. You could always add a washer to each of the three studs to space the cover out a bit to get more clearance.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

cut a gasket out of cardboard and put some duct tape on the hole you created and around the hole the wires come out.
Good luck
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

Thanks. Will do both of these. I have the rubber gasket/grommet for the wires and the tin, thankfully.

EDIT (1am Phx time) All back together and it's charging!!! Of course it was two days ago so I'll run it in the morning to see if everything holds up.

Thanks again everyone.
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

I am just curious, what is the best way to remove the alternator bracket. I need to take it off to bend it straight, the tightening lobe got bigger.
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

I am just curious, what is the best way to remove the alternator bracket. I need to take it off to bend it straight, the tightening lobe got bigger.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

porschpow wrote:
I am just curious, what is the best way to remove the alternator bracket. I need to take it off to bend it straight, the tightening lobe got bigger.


Are you meaning that the adjusting slot has spread and that the special nut is spinning?
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

Mine never had the special nut from the get go, but I found one and now have to fix the bracket since the lobe spread apart, it looks to be a PITA!!
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator Type IV (4) Reply with quote

porschpow wrote:
Mine never had the special nut from the get go, but I found one and now have to fix the bracket since the lobe spread apart, it looks to be a PITA!!


A long extension and a ratchet will get the upper bolt, the lower one is easily accessible but it may be a rusty mess.
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