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Q-Dog
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 8699
Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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 Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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Try retarding the timing a little.
p.s. in 35+ years of working on these cars I have never static timed one. I eyeball the distributor at 0° TDC and they always start. Then I set timing with a strobe light.
_________________
Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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prkid424
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2015
Posts: 171
Location: Wodbridge, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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| Q-Dog wrote: |
Try retarding the timing a little.
p.s. in 35+ years of working on these cars I have never static timed one. I eyeball the distributor at 0° TDC and they always start. Then I set timing with a strobe light. |
Exactly why I LOVE The Samba...I'm a total noob, this is my first adventure at Air Cooled VWs. Thanks for all the tips. So at TDC, how do you eyeball it- where do you set it and what reference points do you use? |
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Bob Brugge
Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2015
Posts: 721
Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:43 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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TDC should be somewhere between where the exh. valve closes and the intake opens. X2 on having a helper turn it over while you twist the dizzy. I too would retard it. I think if it was 180 out, it wouldn't run at all. If none of the above works, I would check the float level and hose out the inside of the carb with cleaner and air.
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Keep on Dubbin'! |
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jspbtown
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004
Posts: 5156
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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It will try to run at 180 degrees out.
Get it to TDC, make a mark on the dizzy body at the #1 plug wire. Remove the cap and alight the rotor with that mark.
And I know I have mentioned this before, and please don't take it the wrong way, but so many, many people are "relatively confident" things are on correctly when they aren't. In fact many people are 100% confident things are on right and they find out they aren't.
It has happened to us all. trust me. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20377
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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What pulley are you using on crankshaft, it is stock VW or after market degree pulley....
Picture below shows a vacuum advance distributor, but is exactly the same as you want setup with 009...
Just to be sure... On firing order...
IF you are running after market pulley verify its correct, there has been a few (3) that I know of that the markings were off by 90°..
And NO we do not think you are a dummy or stupid, but on this end of computer screen we can only diagnose symptom by what you tell us... IF your assumptions is wrong or you have overlooked something we will not know and it makes whole process flawed...
Other question is, are you original builder of engine in its latest form before changing distributor or is this something that came to you and is this is your first rodeo with changing a distributor on this engine......
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...
Last edited by Dale M. on Thu May 19, 2016 7:17 am; edited 2 times in total |
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prkid424
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2015
Posts: 171
Location: Wodbridge, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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| Bob Brugge wrote: |
| TDC should be somewhere between where the exh. valve closes and the intake opens. X2 on having a helper turn it over while you twist the dizzy. I too would retard it. I think if it was 180 out, it wouldn't run at all. If none of the above works, I would check the float level and hose out the inside of the carb with cleaner and air. |
Gonna work on the timing in a bit, but I took apart the entire carb and cleaned it out and rebuilt. Float is clean and moves freely. The float needle valve is new
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prkid424
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2015
Posts: 171
Location: Wodbridge, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
What pulley are you using on crankshaft, it is stock VW or after market degree pulley....
Dale |
Scat aftermarket degree |
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prkid424
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2015
Posts: 171
Location: Wodbridge, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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| jspbtown wrote: |
It will try to run at 180 degrees out.
Get it to TDC, make a mark on the dizzy body at the #1 plug wire. Remove the cap and alight the rotor with that mark.
And I know I have mentioned this before, and please don't take it the wrong way, but so many, many people are "relatively confident" things are on correctly when they aren't. In fact many people are 100% confident things are on right and they find out they aren't.
It has happened to us all. trust me. |
totally agree, that is why I am reaching out to the community. I only know what I know...and I know that aint much  |
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andygere
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2014
Posts: 600
Location: Central Coast, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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| I recently replaced a Hot Spark SVDA dizzy with a Pertronix SVDA. TDC for #1 was 90 degrees out from one to the other. Take your right valve cover off, hand crank motor so #1 is at TDC, and make sure the rotor is pointing at the wire for #1. Also, recheck plug wires for correct firing order, and good contact at dizzy cap and plug electrodes. Muir provides a detailed article on how to do this. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20377
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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Side note on finding TDC, the intake and exhaust valve for #1 should be closed, and the intake valve for #3 should be open as timing marks on pulley/case align...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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prkid424
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2015
Posts: 171
Location: Wodbridge, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
What pulley are you using on crankshaft, it is stock VW or after market degree pulley....
Picture below shows a vacuum advance distributor, but is exactly the same as you want setup with 009...
Just to be sure... On firing order...
IF you are running after market pulley verify its correct, there has been a few (3) that I know of that the markings were off by 90°..
And NO we do not think you are a dummy or stupid, but on this end of computer screen we can only diagnose symptom by what you tell us... IF your assumptions is wrong or you have overlooked something we will not know and it makes whole process flawed...
Other question is, are you original builder of engine in its latest form before changing distributor or is this something that came to you and is this is your first rodeo with changing a distributor on this engine......
Dale |
Lots of great questions and advise Dale....much appreciated. I will look over something 100 times even if I am "confident" I did it right...obviously something is wrong else I would be having fun cruising  I have taken zero offense and am taking notes for everything to try as soon as I get back home (job always gets in the way of fun)
I am not the original builder of this engine nor buggy. I purchased it last year and am slowly working my way through every nut and bolt. I figured a tune up would be a good place to start with the engine. It seemed a bit tired and lacking of power. I updated/replaced the sparkplugs, dizzy, wires, oil, oil screen, adjusted vavles so I can get some fun out of it before this coming winter when the plan is to rebuild the engine. This is my first rodeo with VWs although both my grandfathers owned them and they let me "work" on the with them (I was the tool gopher).
I also plan to do a compression test today to see if maybe there is a deeper issue and not just an ignition gremlin. |
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jspbtown
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004
Posts: 5156
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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| Since you can't keep it running by covering the carb inlet (which would suggest vacuum leak) and you can't keep it running by jabbing the throttle and therefore giving it gas (since you can see a stream of gas) one has to come to the conclusion that its dizzy related...especially since it was removed. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20377
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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Kind of sorta believe that distributor install by previous builder may not have "been by the book" and what you are trying to do is do it by the book and its biting you.... Might want to look deeper to see where distributor drive gear is oriented when #1 is at TDC ... But if its not to bad you should be able to use static timing to get it where it wants to be...
Also remove bolt that holds pulley to crank and verify key way is at 90° to TDC mark like in picture ... Do not believe that is problem as SCAT is usually right on the money with their products, but it eliminates one variable...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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prkid424
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2015
Posts: 171
Location: Wodbridge, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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| jspbtown wrote: |
| Since you can't keep it running by covering the carb inlet (which would suggest vacuum leak) and you can't keep it running by jabbing the throttle and therefore giving it gas (since you can see a stream of gas) one has to come to the conclusion that its dizzy related...especially since it was removed. |
ran home for lunch....grabbed the old dizzy....installed it....started right up. I was told the 009 would work with my set up. At least I learned a few things along the way and that's what this is all about right???. But I still want to go with the 009. Going to play around with it and try to figure out why it wouldn't work. |
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prkid424
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2015
Posts: 171
Location: Wodbridge, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
Kind of sorta believe that distributor install by previous builder may not have "been by the book" and what you are trying to do is do it by the book and its biting you.... Might want to look deeper to see where distributor drive gear is oriented when #1 is at TDC ... But if its not to bad you should be able to use static timing to get it where it wants to be...
Also remove bolt that holds pulley to crank and verify key way is at 90° to TDC mark like in picture ... Do not believe that is problem as SCAT is usually right on the money with their products, but it eliminates one variable...
Dale |
also verified the pulley...it was on the money, but def something to keep in mind.
is there a way to test the dizzy out to see if i got a faulty one? |
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prkid424
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2015
Posts: 171
Location: Wodbridge, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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| got home and had a thought...there are two maintenance parts in a dizzy right - condenser and points. I took the condenser off the old dizzy and put it on the new 009. Car started right up. Seems like the condenser in the new dizzy came defective. After all the work and troubleshooting it was a $3 part....guess thats just how things go. |
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Q-Dog
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 8699
Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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| prkid424 wrote: |
| got home and had a thought...there are two maintenance parts in a dizzy right - condenser and points. I took the condenser off the old dizzy and put it on the new 009. Car started right up. Seems like the condenser in the new dizzy came defective. After all the work and troubleshooting it was a $3 part....guess thats just how things go. |
That's fantastic you found the problem.
_________________
Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20377
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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Great.... Seems in performance forum, there has been numerous post about bad condencers right out of box....... I run electronic points replacement modules so brain was not on points and condenser thought wave...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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prkid424
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2015
Posts: 171
Location: Wodbridge, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
Great.... Seems in performance forum, there has been numerous post about bad condencers right out of box....... I run electronic points replacement modules so brain was not on points and condenser thought wave...
Dale |
Glad you brought that up..seeing that I had this issue- are those highly recommended or just a nice "upgrade" |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20377
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Engine starting problems...... |
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Personally I like them and have not had any problems with them on my two buggies....
IN performance section there is some people bad mouthing them and I suspect they are not people who understand if you hook them up backwards they will self destruct.... They are simple to wire, RED wire to "+" side (#15) on coil and BLACK to "-" (#1) of coil... Reverse them and POOF...
I think they are just fine, others will come along with differing opinions...
If you are considering them go with COMPUFIRE or PERTONIX (now same company) stay from no-name copies...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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