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Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy)
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

Glasser wrote:
LOL Awesome, Know the feeling and I will never grow up... and probably always want more.
I'm just tired of having a fast looking buggy and having a Chevy Equinox kick my ass....

I'm really glad I found these numbers as it puts everything into perspective. If I can get 130-140HP out of this thing I'm sure I'd be very happy!

..


Yes....you will do just fine with that chassis and those hp numbers.

Mind you....if you are not racing....a lot of what is suggested on this forum is far more than needed for quick street driving. Not bashing ANYONE or ANYTHING in this forum...but far too many here only think in terms of track and HIGHEST hp for the CC's and $$'s. It is after all....the Performance engine forum Very Happy .

Also...find some online calculators...and plug in the weight....the HP and torque....what rpm you plan to use that at...and tire circumference and width...and gearing. The tires and gearing are critical. Without that..HP numbers are pure meaningless BS.
I see industrial machines every day... that will put ANY engine..ever built on a VW frame to shame in HP and torque....but...they weight 8,000 lbs nd have 4' diameter wheels and cannot move over 5mph. Wink

Years ago on the Shoptalkforums, Jake Raby (Type 4 specialist)....has numerous conversations/threads....with the yahoos who were always diving into threads and asking what combo for their "beetle"....would be required for 175 to 250hp.

These threads stick out because none of them were racing. The cars in question were daily drivers...and the owners had not even thought forward to....braking, suspension, safety....dang....

Raby had a type 4 powered beetle (I think it was called the Bluebonic plague)...several drove it. It went through several iterations up to about 3 liters.

Because of the torque levels and throttle response...down low...and very good gearing....and very light.... from what I remember....most noted that the acceleration in street form with a car that light with that much torque is a bit to get used to.
At 1400 lbs....150hp will drive like 300 hp on a 2800 lbs car...IF the gearing, tires and exhaust are right.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

Approximately 15 lbs boost will double your hp.
If your 1776 was say a mid level tune and you are getting 80 hp out of it....
add a turbo at 7.5 lbs boost which is not very difficult and can be done with carb but I recommend EFI...you would then be 80 plus 40 equals 120 hp.
You wouldn't even be making a turbo sweat at that pressure.
Now......take my itty bitty 1679cc engine with a W-100 cam and some DRD 40X37.5mm heads. I figure it could put out about 75 hp N/A.
Add 22 lbs boost to that and do the math. 14.7 lbs boost at 100% efficiency would be double and then add another 50% so 75+75+37.5 equals about 187.5 hp.

I have four 32# injectors that will support 230 hp at 100% duty cycle....which means that they would be fully open and continuously spraying at that rate.
My data logs show that I am running them at 95.4% DC at full throttle and full boost when under full load. My AFR's are at 12.0:1 which is right where they are supposed to be and I am injecting 2.0 gph of Water/Alcohol included at that AFR.

I flip a switch and it is now limited to 6 lbs boost and doesn't need any water injection and it still whips through traffic but anyone can drive it.

Hit the two OH SH*T switches and you better hold on.

I run a stock tranny with 3rd and 4th gear hubs welded.
A Kennedy Stage I clutch with CB super Disc.

There is absolutely no slip and as long as you don't do "Mario" style launches the trans will hold up to a lot of power.
Here is what you don't want to keep doing...... Shocked Laughing Laughing


Link


My Buggy drives like a stocker and gets 25 mpg without even getting a perfect tune.
I'm getting it ready for a 1300 mile trip to California in July and I have no worries that it will make it with style.

With a buggy you have lots of room for a turbo in back and don't even need a fancy header. I used a cheapo sedan header and built an up-pipe for it. It's been working for 5 years now.

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I personally don't recommend a draw through......but I live in a cool wet climate and they work best in a warm dry climate. YMMV

I upgrade my buggy in the winter and drive it every day it's dry in the spring, summer and fall. I'm sure you would probably do the same.

Start gathering parts and work into it slowly. I did most of mine myself and knew nothing of turbo or EFI when I started.
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Glasser
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

Been talking to the previous owner some more. He was told estimated HP from this set up was in the 140HP range. Here is a clip of this motor jut before he took it out and put the 6 cyl in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKIkZXOzpEU

The new owner has the same parts (cam etc) that was already in it so should be a proven combination.

Not sure but thinking this would be much more reliable than a turbo set up. and no Lap Top required. Might not be as much HP but pretty sure the torque would be more.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

you do know that a type IV engine is a bit heavier than a typeI, right??

It's pretty easy to get 140-150HP out of a typeI at less overall costs and with out the additional weight.

unless your getting the Type IV parts pretty cheap, I say stick with the type I.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

Weight would probably minimal as it's converted to an upright with DTM fibreglass shroud. I'm running a aluminum bubble top block now so it's already a heavy type 1. Don't have a price yet so this will be put into the equation.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 7:06 am    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

I would price 76 crank (to reuse your90.5's), cam and lifter change, new heads (if yours are stock), and some 40 dells or 44idf's.

What are your heads and exhaust currently?
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
midtravelmidengine wrote:
Glasser wrote:
the intentions to have a real nasty little street machine.


Just my $.02 which may only be worth half that Laughing Laughing

This is all just what I have heard by a man who owns and runs a vw shop for 40? years as I have not driven a type 4 myself. (asked when I was looking to build a type 4 for a Baja)

Type 4s have a heavy rotating assembly and are better suited for wide ratio trans gears, heavy hauling and grunt oriented builds as they build great torque. Its not going to rap like a street bike. Im not sure how it would feel in a light weight buggy with short tires/gears. Just throwing that out there as food for thought. maybe no validity but, thought id through it out there as you were looking for a "real nasty" engine.

Confused


Um...no. The rotating assembly weighs within a few pounds of the type 1. In fact ...1.7 and 1.8's at 66mm stroke and 2.0 at 71mm stroke...and yes type 4 has larger journals...but really...the rotating weight and mass is little difference. The case is heavier and much more stout....aluminum.

And....the torque band as designed on 411,412 and 914 peaks lower in the rpm range and worked well with final drives as high as 3.73:1 stock....and the bus versions were different still.

Yes....they can and do rev just like any type 1 motor is capable of. It all depends on the combo and gearing.

A 2.4 liter...not enough for a manx? Rolling Eyes ......jeez...you can crank out an honest 125-135 hp with a well built 2056....what are you looking for?




Hang on a minute. I never said a 2.4 type 4 wasn't enough for a manx. please don't put words into my mouth. Confused

All I was pointing out was that even with more power, it MIGHT not feel "quicker" without the right gearing in the trans and with the light weight of the manx not loading the gears ect.

Some people like to be pushed to the seat on a long 2nd gear pull, others like to shift from first to second in under a second....



Im trying to figure out how to describe what im trying to say. Ok, a new chevy truck. Let a 20 year old girl (no offense Embarassed Laughing ) drive a 5.3 that revs to 5800 end then put them in the same truck with a diesel and ask them which truck has more power. get my point? it doesn't matter that the diesel makes double the power. does that make sense?

For a lot of people the "butt dyno" is influenced a LOT by exhaust sound and rpms. Laughing Laughing

I was just putting a perspective out there that the OP might not have considered is all.


as far as the weight I was referring to more of the pins and pistons and flywheel/pressure plate....
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I just wasn't sure if I should recommend the 1/3 race cam, the 1/2 race cam, or the 5/8 race cam instead...guess it depends on how much of the race he wants to lead???
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Glasser
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

It's all good guys, I see all the points being made and appreciate the feedback and ideas.
The 1776 has brand new empi bug valve heads, can't remember the specs and a 1.625 merged header. I could stroke this engine up to a 2110, it's clearanced for that.
I'm really digging this type IV idea though.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

midtravelmidengine wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
midtravelmidengine wrote:
Glasser wrote:
the intentions to have a real nasty little street machine.


Just my $.02 which may only be worth half that Laughing Laughing

This is all just what I have heard by a man who owns and runs a vw shop for 40? years as I have not driven a type 4 myself. (asked when I was looking to build a type 4 for a Baja)

Type 4s have a heavy rotating assembly and are better suited for wide ratio trans gears, heavy hauling and grunt oriented builds as they build great torque. Its not going to rap like a street bike. Im not sure how it would feel in a light weight buggy with short tires/gears. Just throwing that out there as food for thought. maybe no validity but, thought id through it out there as you were looking for a "real nasty" engine.

Confused


Um...no. The rotating assembly weighs within a few pounds of the type 1. In fact ...1.7 and 1.8's at 66mm stroke and 2.0 at 71mm stroke...and yes type 4 has larger journals...but really...the rotating weight and mass is little difference. The case is heavier and much more stout....aluminum.

And....the torque band as designed on 411,412 and 914 peaks lower in the rpm range and worked well with final drives as high as 3.73:1 stock....and the bus versions were different still.

Yes....they can and do rev just like any type 1 motor is capable of. It all depends on the combo and gearing.

A 2.4 liter...not enough for a manx? Rolling Eyes ......jeez...you can crank out an honest 125-135 hp with a well built 2056....what are you looking for?




Hang on a minute. I never said a 2.4 type 4 wasn't enough for a manx. please don't put words into my mouth. Confused

All I was pointing out was that even with more power, it MIGHT not feel "quicker" without the right gearing in the trans and with the light weight of the manx not loading the gears ect.

Some people like to be pushed to the seat on a long 2nd gear pull, others like to shift from first to second in under a second....



Im trying to figure out how to describe what im trying to say. Ok, a new chevy truck. Let a 20 year old girl (no offense Embarassed Laughing ) drive a 5.3 that revs to 5800 end then put them in the same truck with a diesel and ask them which truck has more power. get my point? it doesn't matter that the diesel makes double the power. does that make sense?

For a lot of people the "butt dyno" is influenced a LOT by exhaust sound and rpms. Laughing Laughing

I was just putting a perspective out there that the OP might not have considered is all.


as far as the weight I was referring to more of the pins and pistons and flywheel/pressure plate....



Very Happy No problem! I get where you are coming from....and actually agree. Its just the way you laid it out.

Really....the complete fully dressed factory type 4 engine...with all of the junk on it...say a fuel injected engine....bus, 411/412 or 914....weighs about 75 lbs more than a type 1 based bug or bus engine...and about 55+ lbs more than a type 3 engine.

This is because of a few things:

1. The case. The bare type 4 case is about 30% heavier than the type 1 case. This is party due to the weight differences between aluminum and magnesium and partly due to somewhat thicker construction in certain areas in the type 4 case.

But when you take a bare case...no rods, bolts and steel parts at all...that difference is less than about 15 lbs...if that.

2. When talking about stock parts....the rods, piston pins and pistons have virtually no difference in weight to a stock type 1.

3. The type 4 flywheel has a few more lbs...a few....but other than being 10-15mm larger on most and 28mm larger on some....that difference is maybe 3 lbs. This is all stock.

4. The stock cooling system on the type 4...with all of the attached boots and draft pipes.. is about 20 lbs heavier than the sheet metal shroud for a type 1.

5. The crank....is maybe a pound or two heavier if that.

Most of the difference in weight in the two types of engine ...is NOT n the rotating mass.

You are not the first and only one to think that the type 4 engine is excessively heavy or slower in rpm rise than a comparable type 1 engine....and this is because 99% of those people who are NOT type 4 literate......base this opinion on their experience that....the type 4 = bus motor.

The type 4 engine is NOT a bus motor. It was never built with the bus in mind. It existed ....long before the bay window bus did....and shortly before the Porsche 914 did.

It was designed explicitly for the VW 411 2 door coupe, 4 door and wagons which debuted in 1968.
Those were 2200 lb, fairly aerodynamic cars with type 3 sized wheelbase....none of which came with a final drive ratio lower than 3.91:1....(my 1973 412 has a final drive in the four speed of 3.73:1) ..and all were made for 70 mph cruising speed....and incidentally....had the highest stock advertised maximum speed of any ACVW until the Porsche 914 (97 mph).

It was only later (1974) that the type 4 engine was re-tuned/de-tuned....and reworked to drive the 4000 lb brick shaped loaf of the bay window bus with low gearing and higher rpm's for cooling. The bay window bus configuration is a TOTALLY different animal than even the stock 411/412/914 spec engines.

Just like ANY type 1....how quick the type 4 revs and where its peak torque point will be....is entirely dependent on the combination you build it with......and as you noted......and as I noted as well.....is greatly dependent on stroke, gearing and tire size.

In general...even with well over a decade of type 4 conversions into bugs, type 3,s ghia, things and even some early buses.....the vast majority of type 1 people....still seem to have any actual real knowledge of type 4 ...other than its more expensive because less parts are available.

I am not going to get into another thread of benefits of type 4 versus type 1. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

Get the T4, then turbo it. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

miniman82 wrote:
Get the T4, then turbo it. Twisted Evil


LMAO.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

miniman82 wrote:
Get the T4, then turbo it. Twisted Evil


Laughing Well since he basically HAS the type 4.....yes...slam a turbo on it.....and you might as well add MS to it.

At that point...with a manx....you might want to add some lead weights to it for safety. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
miniman82 wrote:
Get the T4, then turbo it. Twisted Evil


Laughing Well since he basically HAS the type 4.....yes...slam a turbo on it.....and you might as well add MS to it.

At that point...with a manx....you might want to add some lead weights to it for safety. Ray



Forget Lead weights, just add wings Cool
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I just wasn't sure if I should recommend the 1/3 race cam, the 1/2 race cam, or the 5/8 race cam instead...guess it depends on how much of the race he wants to lead???
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

Might need both of the above ? LOL.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

The Fanhousing is the Cali Style. My design using a 36 hp fanhousing.
The intake Carb Manifolds are Alum. Dellorto or Weber for 914's Had a few sets.

A cam is extremely important for any 914, You have to find out what pistons you have ( or do you have )? Check the heads for cracks and what ever they are will be great for your needs.

Talk WRX if you want but a T-4 upright conversion like you have only weights 25 lbs more then a stock 1.6 T-1. You have to use a bus clutch so you will have amazing holding power. Unlike a WRX Water Cooled Engine, the T-4 bolt right up, no radiator or water hoses

Keep in mind a 914 had a top speed of over 120 mph. It weights 300 lbs more then my bug with a 2.0 with 1.7 heads and the car will blast from 60 to 100 in seconds. Look at what yours weighs ha. Granted the WRX is going to be crazy fast, but you will never use it top end. Think 0 to 80. My bug lifts at 90 and steering gets light.

Recent Happy Customer Video. PUT THE VOLUME SPEAKERS UP!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deD2JxpUA48




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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

Also keep in mind T-4's do not have a good reputation from being in two ton buses and being over heated with beach party goers on the sofa's.

In 914 they easily go well in the 160k area without rebuild. Never have I heard of one overheating in a light bug. Actually the main problem is in cool weather they have a hard time getting to running temp.
The engine is hardly working pushing a bug and ghia..
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

He came back with a very fair price. I now own a 2.4l Porsche for my buggy!!!
Thx for all your help and advice. I'm sure I will have more questions as I put this beast back together.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

Fantastic,
once you get it set up and finally tuned you will not look back. More then enough power for that light car. Next is the tranny, for off road or highway.

Getting it street legal for highway may be an issue but when you do with the right tranny you will have an Arial Atom.

Also the engine simple, and will appreciate with time, unlike the Zillon WRX's that are on the roads

Best of luck..
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

nextgen wrote:
Fantastic,
once you get it set up and finally tuned you will not look back. More then enough power for that light car. Next is the tranny, for off road or highway.

Getting it street legal for highway may be an issue but when you do with the right tranny you will have an Arial Atom.

Also the engine simple, and will appreciate with time, unlike the Zillon WRX's that are on the roads

Best of luck..


Thx! I am super pumped.
Its street legal now so that isn't an issue Wink She is an on highway only car. I had an off road rail but sold it a few years ago.
I was heading to a local VW car show and here is a clip of it with the 1776.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxBhrAa5aDU

I may need to rethink my gearing now, I need a new trans as this one is on borrowed time. Right now I've got a squareback trans with 411 ratio. It cruises at 3000RPM and 110KMPH (68.35 MPH).(Tall tires).
I am looking forward to not having to rev the crap out of it to actually go somewhere and the reliability is going to be sooooo nice.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help. Looking at a type IV motor.(Picture heavy) Reply with quote

Love that wind in the face driving.

Yes the tranny will make a big difference, I forget what ratio I have but by a taller 4th I dropped several hundred RPM. The bug cruises at 75 all day.

At 65 it was real noisey, after the tranny switch it got noticeably quieter.

No need for a special tranny flywheel. Use a bus flywheel and clutch 200mm 210 mm 215 mm all good. Blance all parts.
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