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Oh no - something blew up
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rob_engineer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

When turning the key, the main pulley rotates about 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn before stopping. I put a breaker bar on the bolt and try to turn it clockwise. The only thing that happens is the bolt gets a little tighter, the pulley does not turn.
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miniman82
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

Best guess:

What usually happens is the oil gets too hot, either by asking the engine to do something it's not supposed to do (driving at 80+mph for example), or because something in the oil control or cooling circuits isn't working or fan cooling not working properly. Oil control pistons are known to sometimes get stuck, which will cause oil not to be directed to the oil cooler as it should with obvious results. Oil coolers can become obstructed with debris giving the same results, or certain seals not being installed on the shrouding to direct air to critical cooling areas are also things that can happen by unknowing builders.

Then when the oil loses its ability to remove heat from the bearings/lubricate them because the oil itself is so hot, the #1 bearing will grab the crankshaft and seize up. The #1 engine bearing is the one closest to the flywheel, FYI. When this happens, only a complete teardown and rebuild is the solution. Case damage is often seen with bearing seizing, because it will continue to spin with the crankshaft and destroy the engine case bore where the bearing normally sits.

Either way, you now need to drop the engine and split the case to figure out what went wrong.
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slalombuggy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

rob_engineer wrote:
When turning the key, the main pulley rotates about 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn before stopping. I put a breaker bar on the bolt and try to turn it clockwise. The only thing that happens is the bolt gets a little tighter, the pulley does not turn.


Spun bearings

brad
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mcmscott
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

Another "engineer"



Engineers scare me, how come "engineers" have no "commen sense"?


Scares me, I mean, I fly in an air plane that is ran by "engineers", do the "engineers" that are keeping this plane in the air have "this" mentality?


And why do all the bad "engineers" brag about being an engineer?
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modok
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

While I do advocate engineers being subjected to mildly derisive humor, I think you have the wrong angle on it.

His description of the problem lacks any hint of engineering mindset. It also lacks a sense of humor. It's only notable quality is a attention to sequence of events which serves no purpose.
There is no definition of the problem, no definition of the desired solution, and it is inflated with unnecessary details.


Last edited by modok on Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rob_engineer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
Another "engineer"



Engineers scare me, how come "engineers" have no "commen sense"?


Scares me, I mean, I fly in an air plane that is ran by "engineers", do the "engineers" that are keeping this plane in the air have "this" mentality?


And why do all the bad "engineers" brag about being an engineer?

Then you'd be thrilled to know I actually work in aerospace and things that I design and test are very likely on any commercial aircraft you fly in and your life may depend on my product working properly. Man, you really need to tone down your attack. It's totally unwarranted. I am a very respected engineer at my company and with my industry colleagues at Boeing. I also have several patents for things I invented. When jumping into something brand new, mistakes can be made. We learn from them, get better and grow because of what the experience has taught us. That is the essence of a good engineer. I respectfully ask that you refrain from further attacks on my engineering abilities and allow the helpful folks on here provide me with some value added education.
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modok
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

It is also possible that he is communicating with us in a manner he feels we are accustomed to. Laughing

I'll NOT take offense to that, and advise, feel free to imagine we are engineers too. It will streamline the process of achieving, whatever it is you are here to achieve.
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rob_engineer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

modok wrote:
While I do advocate engineers being subjected to mildly derisive humor, I think you have the wrong angle on it.

His description of the problem lacks any hint of engineering mindset. It also lacks a sense of humor. It's only notable quality is a attention to sequence of events which serves no purpose.
There is no definition of the problem, no definition of the desired solution, and it is inflated with unnecessary details.

I've been involved in some pretty high profile formal NTSB investigations and have even testified as an expert in Washington DC. One thing that happens when there is an investigation is that you collect and present all of the facts and observations, even those that may appear on their surface to be irrelevant. So, in my original post and some follow on posts I was providing all of the known facts and observations I had at my disposal. I really don't understand the negativity. I have previously been very active with thousands of posts in RV, Jeep, Glock, and Harley forums and have never seen these unwarranted attacks against another forum member, particularly towards a newer member asking for advice and trying to learn. And I have not exhibited any condescending attitudes to non-engineers. Why I am getting some attitudes from a couple of people here is baffling to me as I've done nothing to deserve that. Everybody is important and engineers are no better than anyone else.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

A tear down is going to be required. That engine is toast for sure. Carefully tear it down and take note of what you find. I doubt much will be salvageable. Hopefully the case can be rescued.

Can't tell from the pictures but looking at the other tin I bet that fan shroud is an empty box with no internal vanes to channel airflow. Get a good fan shroud. I would also find and run all the other runs that are missing. Sled tins and industrial tins should help get the hot air out the back and not cook your new engine.

Don't worry about the haters. We all started learning somewhere. There is good advice here as well. Good luck with it. Take pictures of the carnage!
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slalombuggy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

You'll have to look past a couple of smart ass comments. there has been a couple of engineers post on here in the last year who didn't know when to shut up and definitely did not have your "humble" attitude.

Shit happens, let's get you back on the road. Once you get it apart, post some pictures if you need advice. IT's a lot easier to diagnose things if we can see them.

brad
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vwinnovator
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

rob_engineer wrote:
Everybody is important and engineers are no better than anyone else.


Finally, an engineer that knows what he's talking about.

You broke your engine though. It's going to need a full rebuild, but most likely your going to need another engine to build from.
case is probably warped, pistons/cyls scored, crank/rods burned...

do you want to rebuild one yourself? or just buy a turnkey ready to bolt in?
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modok
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

slalombuggy wrote:

Shit happens, let's get you back on the road. Once you get it apart, post some pictures if you need advice. IT's a lot easier to diagnose things if we can see them.

brad


Cheers to that!

I don't know if you want to fix it yourself(?), understand the problem(the engine might have been marginal, vehicle not designed for highway use), or inquiring if it was typical (yes), or why it is typical(no comment), or what you should do(?), or wanted to talk about how you feel about it. All of which we do here, regularly, but hopefully not all at once, as that would be confusing.
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FreeBug
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

It seems to go like this:

1.) I can fix my engine.

2.) There's an engineer who can't fix his!?!

Conclusion: I am better, smarter than an engineer!!!

It has the word "engine" in it, so every engineer MUST know everything about internal combustion... even if you're a civil engineer, or something like that.

Sorry about the attitude here, but once it settles down, there's some people here that really know their stuff. Enjoy the rebuild!
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raul arrese
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:50 am    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

We love the whole Engineer thing on this Forum...
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rob_engineer
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:59 am    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

vwinnovator wrote:
rob_engineer wrote:
Everybody is important and engineers are no better than anyone else.


Finally, an engineer that knows what he's talking about.

You broke your engine though. It's going to need a full rebuild, but most likely your going to need another engine to build from.
case is probably warped, pistons/cyls scored, crank/rods burned...

do you want to rebuild one yourself? or just buy a turnkey ready to bolt in?

Thanks. I'm in a decision phase now of whether I attack this myself or find someone to do it for me. This is my wife's buggy. Her priorities are that the car look good and that it runs reliably. She doesn't really care so much about torque, acceleration, etc. so another part of my decision will be related to what changes I may make. For example, should I do turn key, but just go to the stock configuration, or should I keep it the 1776. I'll have to learn the advantages and disadvantages of each approach.
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rob_engineer
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:05 am    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

FreeBug wrote:
It seems to go like this:

1.) I can fix my engine.

2.) There's an engineer who can't fix his!?!

Conclusion: I am better, smarter than an engineer!!!

It has the word "engine" in it, so every engineer MUST know everything about internal combustion... even if you're a civil engineer, or something like that.

Sorry about the attitude here, but once it settles down, there's some people here that really know their stuff. Enjoy the rebuild!


Some of the best "engineers" I have known in my lifetime don't actually have that piece of paper that says they are an engineer. Every time I interview a prospective engineer to work for me I always ask them this question: " when your car needs maintenance or repair do you do it or do you pay someone to do it." I only want engineers that are capable of working with their hands to do stuff.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

A 1776 is a great engine in a buggy. I had one in mine for 15 years. Decent power, low maintenance, dead reliable.(usually Smile ) they are really easy engines to build as long as you pay attention to the details.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:49 am    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
Another "engineer"



Engineers scare me, how come "engineers" have no "commen sense"?


Scares me, I mean, I fly in an air plane that is ran by "engineers", do the "engineers" that are keeping this plane in the air have "this" mentality?


And why do all the bad "engineers" brag about being an engineer?


Firts off i think all of us that build and drive vw's are engineers , you have to be !!! and second , a good friend of mine works on airplanes and everytime he's at my house he cant fix shit or help in any way ?? i dont get it ..
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yamaducci
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

OK, OK enough about the Engineer BS! MCMScott and Modok are like woodwork around here but they are getting too crotchety and need to cool it on the newbee. Engineers are not born knowing all about VW air cooled engines; neither were any of you. This is way off topic and does not help our "sport".
Rob, welcome to theSamba!
Yes you may get some heat from some of the Geezers around here; that is part of the fun but the bottom line is you will get a lot of help once they tone down.
VWinnovator is in MD and can build you what you need or give advice. I am in Md and can do the same when I have the time. Slalombuggy has been through his paces as well. Mark Tucker is a hilarious tool who doesn't like to spell correctly but you can understand him most of the time. And usually he's right.
So, when I was a newbee years ago I drove home a stored Bug and had the same power decrease issue you describe and it turned out to be a mouse nest of headliner material above both cylinders and heads. It overheated and seized like you described. It was toast as others have mentioned. Overheating is the worst. If you want to tackle this yourself you have plenty of experience reading books so you are going to have to get back to the 101 class of Aircooled VW's. You can do it but you have to take your time and question (and measure) every part to see if it's salvageable. As mentioned, Take it out and start tearing it down. Catalog the nuts, bolts and parts if you need to. Take and post pics. Some of the guys here can look at a bad pick and can tell if something is toast; other parts need to be measured. "Borrow" the tools from work if need be. Good luck. The 1776 is a great engine so no need to question that. A 36 HP fan shroud and the cylinder tins you have there is all that's really needed in a buggy as long as the metal air deflectors under the cylinders are also there.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: Oh no - something blew up Reply with quote

My posts were not pointed at you directly, but at "engineers" in general. Most of them brag that they are an engineer, have to point out thier credentials and such to attempt to impress you, there have been a few on here. Most of them cannot open a tool box let alone know how to fix anything. I am sorry if you took that personel. Welcome to the Samba
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