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36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

Can later, taller, reduction gear boxes be installed on the early transaxle? Even just going from 1.39 down to 1.26 would cut engine rpm by 10% and if the power is there allow the top speed climb by more than 10%.

I'm not sure I would be stroking an engine I was planning to rev unless the crank is counterweighted. Are there any big bore kits for the 36 horse?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

just finished a 36 okrasa for a buddy. it.s going in a 57 standard . ww cam and stock muffler. split case trans. ill tell ya how it runs Wink second one i have built. the other one went into a 57 vert.he said it feels like a 1600 single port. will still only be good for 55-60 in a bus but will get there way faster. which i think you are after..probably is good for more but it will feel like your killing it. another buddy runs a stock 36 with a big nut and i have been trying him to go okrasa to see how it goes. a small nut tunnel trans will probably be a better match 4.12 r/p compared to 4.43 in the split case. .tire size is a factor. with 165,s my bus could not hit 50! put proper 6.40,s 55 no problem .just thinking out loud
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

sgmalt46 wrote:
just finished a 36 okrasa for a buddy.


Do you have a shop? Do you do rebuilds for anybody other than buddy's? I'm here in San Jose and looking for a local shop (Waiting to see if FEX in Livermore will work on it). Otherwise I will likely send it down to Mr. 36 in Irvine.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

txoval wrote:
For those who know, would the original 36hp make it to 60 or did the engine hp/tq limit it to less? I don't think RPM's are the issue, can a stock 36hp push a stock weight Bus to 60mph?


Absolutely, my '55 can do 60 but it is SUPER loud due to the RPMs.
It prefers 50-52.

All speeds GPS phone App verified.

Don't have 60 MPH proof but here's 55 MPH:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=934118


BTW... Agree with everything that sled posted above
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hoss
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

sled wrote:
ok rather than just speculating and saying this will work or that wont work, lets look at the numbers.

a stock 58 split case transaxle has a 4.40 ring and a .82 fourth gear. The reduction boxes are 1.4

I am assuming you are running stock tires which are 6.40-15, or an equivalent diameter radial tire.

with this setup, your engine will be spinning 3786 rpm at 60mph. While this is not an ridiculous speed, it is a little less than ideal unless your engine has been fully balanced. Generally for a balance of optimum cooling/fuel consumption/performance I like to cruise on the freeway around 3400-3500. That being said, you will either need slightly larger tires, or different gearing in the transmission.

OR when you have the engine built, make sure you spend some extra cash and have all of the rotating components balanced WELL. I would have no concern singing along for hours on end at 3700 rpms with a quality rotating mass.

Now, since you want to stay with the okrasa 36 (which I agree is awesome) I think you should look into maybe running a later 'small nut' transaxle. by simply switching your transaxle your cruising rpms at 60 mph will drop to 3500rpm. This is a happy place for a nice okrasa 36, with enough room to floor it and go 70 (4100rpm) for a while if you please.

about the crank..We will all have varying opinions but I dont think the $500 is worth it for the performance gains. I would take that $500 and spend it on improving the heads. the stock ports and combustion chambers leave quite a bit to be desired. If some work went into the chambers to improve combustion, you could run a higher compression ratio which equates to more power and torque across the board. A little port work will give you some extra oomph at higher rpms which will help with getting onto the freeway and possibly being able to pass someone. Again, there are those who will disagree but its just something to chew on.

OR just say screw it and let the greenbacks fly and build a 74x80. You would love it!


Thanks for all this info.. SUPER helpful. I really appreciate it.

Do you have any photos online of your bus running 6.70's? How much larger than the 6.40's I have on it now?

Here is what I want to put this motor in.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

Beautiful bus. I agree with Everett and Sled quite a bit.. The way I would approach it though would be to upgrade the engine with the WW Okrasa kit, I personally would want the crankshaft as well. Then drive the bus for a while with the new power and acceleration. 55 will be your effective top end cruise speed with the split case and rgbs and not over revving...but the bus will get to those speeds so much faster and feel a lot safer. Then ponder a transmission swap if you feel it's necessary. Put the OG trans on a pallet and don't chop anything on the bus in the process.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

hoss wrote:
sgmalt46 wrote:
just finished a 36 okrasa for a buddy.


Do you have a shop? Do you do rebuilds for anybody other than buddy's? I'm here in San Jose and looking for a local shop (Waiting to see if FEX in Livermore will work on it). Otherwise I will likely send it down to Mr. 36 in Irvine.


pm sent Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




there are the combustion chambers for any who may be interested. Zero squish band and no bowl shaping around the valves to promote cylinder filling.

these heads as-is will have a relatively poor burn quality. (more fuel consumption and necessitating lower compression ratio)

yes....I know they are copies of real okrasa heads, but this does not mean okrasa knew what they were doing in the 50's.

in comparison, here is a Denzel head of the same time period. With some competent welding and machining the Okrasa heads could be vastly improved. throwing more stroke at the engine just pulls more fuel/air into the cylinder to be burned poorly. now, a stroker crank AND head work would be awesome.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:44 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

hoss wrote:


Do you have any photos online of your bus running 6.70's? How much larger than the 6.40's I have on it now?




Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.





I would recommend changing the transaxle before the tires. your bus looks 'right' with the correct size tires.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

If you really want to drive it comfortably swap the crash box for a big nut tunnel trans and build up the 36er (or a 1600 based engine). It will in no means be a speed demon with the built 36hp but it will be a huge improvement over stock.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

sled wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




there are the combustion chambers for any who may be interested. Zero squish band and no bowl shaping around the valves to promote cylinder filling.

these heads as-is will have a relatively poor burn quality. (more fuel consumption and necessitating lower compression ratio)

yes....I know they are copies of real okrasa heads, but this does not mean okrasa knew what they were doing in the 50's.

in comparison, here is a Denzel head of the same time period. With some competent welding and machining the Okrasa heads could be vastly improved. throwing more stroke at the engine just pulls more fuel/air into the cylinder to be burned poorly. now, a stroker crank AND head work would be awesome.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is an excellent post
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

Another reason to chose the WW crank is that the stock cranks seems to break in hotroded engines (and even stock ones). Try to picture-Google "broken 36 hp crank" and you'll see what I mean!

I think my engine would work fine in a bus, it is nice and strong on low to medium revs:

Okrasa TSV1300 bottom (WW crank) end w. stock cam and 8.2:1 compression, 010 and dual NDIX from a Porsche 1600N.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

tobiasax wrote:
Another reason to chose the WW crank is that the stock cranks seems to break in hotroded engines (and even stock ones). Try to picture-Google "broken 36 hp crank" and you'll see what I mean!

I think my engine would work fine in a bus, it is nice and strong on low to medium revs:

Okrasa TSV1300 bottom (WW crank) end w. stock cam and 8.2:1 compression, 010 and dual NDIX from a Porsche 1600N.


Why would the WW crank be any better than a stock one? I would think if anything a stroked crank would have more torsion pressure on it because of the added leverage and higher torque. Do they make them better than the originals or just originals worn out of from years of use?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

If you go with a stroked crank, I'd go to DPR over WW...have Jose balance your crank, flywheel(he'll lighten it too), and clutch/pressure plate at the same time

My crank:

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

Chris Paterson wrote:
tobiasax wrote:
Another reason to chose the WW crank is that the stock cranks seems to break in hotroded engines (and even stock ones). Try to picture-Google "broken 36 hp crank" and you'll see what I mean!

I think my engine would work fine in a bus, it is nice and strong on low to medium revs:

Okrasa TSV1300 bottom (WW crank) end w. stock cam and 8.2:1 compression, 010 and dual NDIX from a Porsche 1600N.


Why would the WW crank be any better than a stock one? I would think if anything a stroked crank would have more torsion pressure on it because of the added leverage and higher torque. Do they make them better than the originals or just originals worn out of from years of use?


The WW crank is made out of 4340 Chromoly steel which is far superior to the 1950's style metallurgy in the stock crank. Reading period reports in magazines (Foreign car guide etc.) it is clear that the cranks were breaking a lot already in the 50's. Around 1956/1957 Okrasa even released a replacement stock stroke crank in a better material for people tired of breaking the stock cranks.

A guess from my side is that the problem was related to defects, thus some cranks were better than others. If that is true most of the "bad" ones would be broken by now. Survival of the fittest so to speak...
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

If you are ready to stray from the stock look and go dual, there is a good deal to be gained.
There are two reasons to why I would recommend ou to replace the crank. 1. The stock crank is somewhat weak, as already menthioned. Especially if you start leaning on it. 2. the added stroke does wonders in helping the engine pull better torque.

The WW kit is a relatively easy build. Most of the parts needed are present or can be bought. The downside with the Okrasa kit as is is the cylinderheads, or rather the intake ports. They are actually too large for the small 33 mm intake and much more for a 1300 engine that is aimed for torque more than rpm hp. That is why I would look in the direction of even more displacement. Again, there are more solutions. The "easy" one is to get an 83 mm cylinderset for a newr "40 horse" and get them machined to accept 36 hp bolt spacing. The rest of the fitting is reasonably trivial. - That would bump the displacement to about 1500 cc. Now were talking. now there is enough displacement to actually exploit the intake port in the Okrasa heads. the addition of a stage 1 cam can help further in adding power. Or give Elgin a call. Hes getting old, but he knows his stuff about these engines. Another solution is to install a set of Speedwell ratio rockers 1,25 or 1,4 dependant on your temper. The carburettors can be modified to handle the air that that engine will need, more or less at least.
Exhaust. DEFINITELY find one better than the stock one. Im not especially impressed with the VS mufflers, but on the other hand they are decent for the money. Or you could build yourself a "bus abarth" Smile
Cooling. A 356 aluminum oil cooler in replacement of the stock cooler would be a nice simple and neat solution. However, I am a firm believer in getting as much heat as possible out of the engine compartement. So i wouls recommend a small external cooler. For instance another stock cooler with an adapter placed strategically beside the transmission. More is not needed and it would keep the vintage look. you should get it controlled by a thermostat. There are several to chose from.
with a little carefull thinking you should now be able to build a nice engine for your bus, that will pull 60, up to 70 hp and make your ride much more comfortable.

My02c.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

I'll bite... what does it take to put a 40 horse big bore kit in a 36 horse? The stud spacing is different so the cylinders will need that opened up. I would think the outer fins would get ground a bit shorter, if they need to conform to 36 horse sizes. What I have no idea about is the wrist pin diameter or height differences, cylinder length differences, piston or cylinder skirt clearances and...

I noticed that AA sells slip in 80mm cylinders that will fit in a 36 horse. The problem is they don't sell pistons to make that an easy upgrade. For subtle, a slip in big bore, some mild stock head porting, a better exhaust, and perhaps a larger PIC carb and/or some ratio rockers could add up to a subtle but nice boost at freeway speeds.

Of course, if Speedwell rereleases their supercharger we could just shove the extra needed air through the thing. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

EV, IIRC, some buses came with so called "mountain gearing" reduction gearing. These gear sets on split case transmissions allowed top cruising speed of aroung 48 MPH! Have you measured your ratios? When the tunnel trans came out, the "normal" reduction gear set offered a slightly higher ratio, than the split case type. I think a single tooth change on one gear. Not much, but some gains there. These can be fit on earlier RD boxes without modification. Also the tunnel bus trans had a higher 3rd and 4th ratio than the Beetle. Another gain to top speed. I don't remember split trans having this feature. Tunnel trans gears are not interchangeable with split case, but you could install a 519 Porsche 356 trans in your bus, replete with RD boxes, without any modifications to your bus.. Many ratios are available, but it wii be very expen$$$ive. Back in the day, we used to fit 40hp intake manifolds and carbs on 36hp to hop them up, but by far the easiest and most effective modification was to install a header "extractor" exhaust system to raise torque. We also fitted taller 15" tires to the rear, or even resorted to fitting obsolete (for then) Barndoor or Porsche 356 16" wheels there. We fitted really tall truck tires to them, which were all that were commonly available in 16", giving a "stink bug" effect, with the rear being way too high! So we lowered the rear spring plates to level the bus. This gave an unintended result of changing the normally positive camber to a neutral or slight negative camber, improving handling beyond our expectations! Anyways, engine torque must be matched to final drive ratios. Weight of the vehicle is a big issue here. Weight removal can be very helpfull. Each engine has a "sweet spot" for torque to ratio. It's not too hard to find that spot. It's where you are cruising along in top gear while only moderately depressing the throttle to maintain speed. Higher torque band = higher top speed for any given ratio box. If you have to lean on it near the
floor to maintain speed, you are trashing the engine! Too high gear, not enough torque.
I hope this helps someone. Comments welcome, as it has been decades for me on this game.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:

Exhaust. DEFINITELY find one better than the stock one. Im not especially impressed with the VS mufflers, but on the other hand they are decent for the money. Or you could build yourself a "bus abarth" Smile


What's the problem with the stock muffler? An original Volkswagen "logo" muffler has no internal restrictions and features equal length primary pipes. Cut one open and you'll see! Just add a pair of free flowing end pipes and you have a real nice exhaust system.

As far as I know neither Abarth-replicas nor VS have equal length primaries, but I have heard that the new stainless mufflers from CSP have it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

EVfun wrote:

I noticed that AA sells slip in 80mm cylinders that will fit in a 36 horse. The problem is they don't sell pistons to make that an easy upgrade. )


The outer diameter of the cylinder foot of a 36hp cylinder is 81,8 mm. If someone try to sell you 80mm bore slip-ins be aware! A cylinder wall thickness of 0,9 mm is a tad to thin in my mind...
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