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swavananda Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2009 Posts: 889 Location: Can o' Scruz
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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Mrfun2fly wrote: |
34 Pic Carb
009 Dist w/Electronic Ignition
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I have seen cheap distributers and electronic ignition modules do some weird things. You really should have a back up points/condenser set anyway. If not ,get a set and take out the EI and give it a shot. Cheap and easy process of elimination . The SVDA distributor is known to work better with that carb as well. |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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Let's stay with this here and see if we can figure this out. . We are going to need to know some things like what year of engine it is at least the PICT 34/3 to match a distributor but for example if your Ghia is a 1971 and you likely have the Original Carb then you could look at this web-site and find the distributor it uses: http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm
For example a 1971 Beetle used the VW 113-905-205AJ, and the 72 and 73 were VW 113-905-205AN, 1974 VW 043-905-205C, Looks like the AN can be used with any year. The Ghia may have used something different! Someone will know so keep the thread going and let us know what you come of with. Many carbs would work but nothing as well as dual IDF Webers or DRLA Dellortos. Also consider getting a Dial Indicator if you don't have one and profile the cam. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Mrfun2fly Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2015 Posts: 548 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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Not sure what year the engine is, my engine builder who has now blown me off since he can't figure out the issue or knows and doesn't want to deal with it. He built the engine w whatever case he had but I will see if I can find an engine number so to find out the year.
My ghia is a 70, I've tried 4 carbs, three 34 pic 3 carBS and one I think 31 pic which was a Solix. My current carb is a brand new EMPI 34 pic 3 that was tested on another engine prior to the install on my engine. And with every carb I have had the same non idling issue:(
I'll look into the Amazon item you suggested, Ive spent so much time and $$ I can't afford to replace the engibe again so thank you for your help Smile |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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fes Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 999 Location: Prince Edward Island
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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Can you explain that 29-30 timing you've tried please _________________ '68 Campmobile-Pedro
'15 Golf-Stella Blau
'56 Oval-The Turd (for now) |
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motorhead364 Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 715 Location: Amarillo Texas
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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Maybe put up a video of it running and trying to idle? _________________ 63 ghia coupe |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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Actually as I think about it you should be able to identify your cam without the dial indicator Just by looking for when one of the valves starts to move open or closes. Does the engine have a degree pulley?
Stock 1600 cam specs. vs
W-100 For example #1 Intake valve with the W-100 are going to be moving open at 14' BTDC but on a Stock Cam more like 0' to 7.5' BTDC "I think these numbers are @ 50 Thousandths with valves set to .004 clearance." The problem with this being, how to tell where 50 thousandths movement is. In reality I see #1 intake start moving Open @ 33' BTDC #3, W-100 Cam.
Degree Pulley
_________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Mrfun2fly Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2015 Posts: 548 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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fes wrote: |
Can you explain that 29-30 timing you've tried please |
Sorry bud, that's just what the mechanic at the shot told me. Said the timing is supposed to be around and 8-9 but had to up it to 29-30 to get it to idle
Hope this helps... |
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Mrfun2fly Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2015 Posts: 548 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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Danwvw wrote: |
Actually as I think about it you should be able to identify your cam without the dial indicator Just by looking for when one of the valves starts to move open or closes. Does the engine have a degree pulley?
Stock 1600 cam specs. vs
W-100 For example #1 Intake valve with the W-100 are going to be moving open at 14' BTDC but on a Stock Cam more like 0' to 7.5' BTDC "I think these numbers are @ 50 Thousandths with valves set to .004 clearance." The problem with this being, how to tell where 50 thousandths movement is. In reality I see #1 intake start moving Open @ 33' BTDC #3, W-100 Cam.
Degree Pulley
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Going to my buddies house Wednesday night, he's built a few of these engines and I'll see if he can figure out the cam size. |
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Mrfun2fly Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2015 Posts: 548 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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I was out again getting ready to tinker w/this again when I noticed two things.
1. A hair line crack under the fuel pump, would this cause any issues?
2. There's a very small leak under the gas tank. It's not dripping but was just wet. This can not be the issue, I've already tried an external gas tank with the same unsuccessful results.
For some extreamly odd reason it idled this time and for the first time and I couldn't get it to dye. The mechanic at my local shop said in order to get it to idle, he had to set the timing from an 8 to a 29 or 30 so not sure if he left it at the higher number or not but will ask him tomorrow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46k_RWouW1o&feature=em-upload_owner |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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Sounds like you may have a fire hazard with that small gas tank leak! I would investigate. Could just need new fuel lines! This is really really important! There is gas tank epoxy you can use on the tank if you can find the leak.
Your case is cracked there, someone screwed the fuel pump stud into the case too far. Remove the fuel pump and double nut the stud and set it back with "JB-Weld" backed out an 1/8" or so from where it is now. It should not be a problem but next time the case get's rebuilt it could be welded.
"he had to set the timing from an 8 to a 29 or 30" Yes that is correct for a 009 distributor. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Mrfun2fly Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2015 Posts: 548 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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Danwvw wrote: |
Actually as I think about it you should be able to identify your cam without the dial indicator Just by looking for when one of the valves starts to move open or closes. Does the engine have a degree pulley?
Stock 1600 cam specs. vs
W-100 For example #1 Intake valve with the W-100 are going to be moving open at 14' BTDC but on a Stock Cam more like 0' to 7.5' BTDC "I think these numbers are @ 50 Thousandths with valves set to .004 clearance." The problem with this being, how to tell where 50 thousandths movement is. In reality I see #1 intake start moving Open @ 33' BTDC #3, W-100 Cam.
Degree Pulley
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Just got back from my buddies house after beating on my ghia for about 2 hours:)-
After about 1.5 hours, we were able to get the engine to idle but couldn't get the timing below 20 degrees.
We took a hard look at the pulley and noticed the pulley has seen it's day so my friend had a numbered pulley we put on. And not timing at idle is 12 degrees and idles. When we run the engine at high rpms, the timing advances to 34 degrees.
From what everyone says, timing should be around 7 degrees at idle?
Also, he did not have the tools to measure the cam so that is still on the honey do list:)
What's everyone's thoughts on my timing being at 12 degrees during idle? because if I drop the timing lower, she wont idle anymore.
Thanks again!
Lee |
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motorhead364 Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 715 Location: Amarillo Texas
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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Do you know how high it's idling? Rpm wise should be 800-900 rpm. If it's higher than that the distributor is already advancing. I'm unfamiliar with the 009 but if it has spring and weights for the advance plate check to make sure they are not worn out. Or doesn't have too much/too little weight. _________________ 63 ghia coupe |
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swavananda Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2009 Posts: 889 Location: Can o' Scruz
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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l still think you should try putting in a point/condenser set. points/dwell affect the timing. That is why you set dwell first before timing. You just want to trust your cheap electronic ignition ? The main concern about timing is the full advance @3000 rpm. 28-32` is average . But you need a strobe gun to set it. Static setting the timing to 12` could put your full advance over the limit and cook your engine. |
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Mrfun2fly Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2015 Posts: 548 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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swavananda wrote: |
l still think you should try putting in a point/condenser set. points/dwell affect the timing. That is why you set dwell first before timing. You just want to trust your cheap electronic ignition ? The main concern about timing is the full advance @3000 rpm. 28-32` is average . But you need a strobe gun to set it. Static setting the timing to 12` could put your full advance over the limit and cook your engine. |
Before putting the new pully on we did try a new distributer (009:( with points w the same results.
Yesterday we used a timing light to set the timing and I am concerned about it running hot so maybe I need to put a temp guage to monitor it? |
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fes Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 999 Location: Prince Edward Island
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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34 degrees max advance and 12 idle is too high in my opinion, regardless of what dizzy you are running..This is also going to make the car run hot and burn the pistons..28-32 is where you should be, and even 10 degrees BTDC is the max I'd ever run a motor.. _________________ '68 Campmobile-Pedro
'15 Golf-Stella Blau
'56 Oval-The Turd (for now) |
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Mrfun2fly Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2015 Posts: 548 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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Thanks again guys, think I"ve exhausted all my resources so guess I'm probably gonna have to tear this motor apart to see what the deal is |
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CiderGuy Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2013 Posts: 1351 Location: Bucks County, Pa
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:03 am Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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Mrfun2fly wrote: |
Thanks again guys, think I"ve exhausted all my resources so guess I'm probably gonna have to tear this motor apart to see what the deal is |
Have you spoken to the engine builder ? I would at the very least take to a VW air cooled repair shop before tearing down the motor. Some times a second or third pair of eyes ... _________________ ----------------------
Cars Currently Owned:
1970 Karmann Ghia Coupe
1973 Karmann Ghia Coupe - Project car for sale
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (Body off restoration)
Timing is everything |
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Mrfun2fly Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2015 Posts: 548 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:11 am Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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CiderGuy wrote: |
Mrfun2fly wrote: |
Thanks again guys, think I"ve exhausted all my resources so guess I'm probably gonna have to tear this motor apart to see what the deal is |
Have you spoken to the engine builder ? I would at the very least take to a VW air cooled repair shop before tearing down the motor. Some times a second or third pair of eyes ... |
Engine builder has ignored me and blown me off since he can't figure it out. And i took it to the local shop where they specialize in these engines. The mechanic at the shop who has been working on these engines for 30+ years says it has to be something w the cam, tooth off or bad grounded cam. |
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Mrfun2fly Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2015 Posts: 548 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Wont Idle I need Help Desperate... New Engine |
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CiderGuy wrote: |
Mrfun2fly wrote: |
Thanks again guys, think I"ve exhausted all my resources so guess I'm probably gonna have to tear this motor apart to see what the deal is |
Have you spoken to the engine builder ? I would at the very least take to a VW air cooled repair shop before tearing down the motor. Some times a second or third pair of eyes ... |
My other thought was to put a temp guage on it and see what the temp numbers are before pulling the engine. |
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