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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote: |
"What do you mean by getting polished?"
Starting to shine up as honing marks are worn.
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You don't want it shinny. You want the cross hatch honing marks in there. That is what breaks in the rings. Without them the rings will never seat.
As BD suggested have them Re-Honed.
You want to clean the shit out of the honing lines. Stone debris get trapped in those honing lines and screws up the rings. I used to put them in a 5 gal bucket of hot water with little tide added and scrub them with a finger nail brush. Rinse dry and oil and then put them in plastic bags.
The machine shop does not clean the cylinders for you. If you did not clean the shit out of the cylinders before you assembled the motor, you do need to replace the rings.
Good luck
Tcash |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2012 Posts: 259 Location: Victoria
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Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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Thanks, yes I will re-clean them well again.
I scrubbed each cylinder several times in detergent and hot water just before assembly, then used WD40 to get rid of the water and not flash rust. I think I will try something with some abrasive qualities this time as suggested here:
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.ca/2007/07/basic-jugs-iii.html _________________ Orange 1973 Campervan. Rebuilt 1700cc with dual Solex carbs. Pertronix electronic points on stock distributor. Engine rebuild in progress (fall 2023). |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2012 Posts: 259 Location: Victoria
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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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Haven't posted in ages, excited to get back to this project.
So I did end up splitting the case, and took everything in to the mechanic for measuring. The rear cam thrust bearing was getting pounded out so new bearings all around. The knock was caused by fore-aft movement as things heated up and when there was no load.
The shake at 2000 was because the pressure plate was not centered on the flywheel. Mechanic thinks the flywheel cutting was too wide on both flywheels I supplied, thus not being able to center pressure plate properly. Went for a third flywheel and a new pressure plate- now centered.
New piston pin bushings as they were out of tolerance.
After months I'm ready to start getting it back together (again). The shop put together the lower end so Im back in familiar territory. Im determined to not have a third buss-less summer so it's going back together in the next few weeks.
A couple other things done, new exhaust stud on one of the heads, re-honed cylinders (got some bon ami to do some intense scrubbing), new alternator as bearings were shot and it was super corroded.
Any advice on getting distributor drive shaft lined up properly with lower end already together? _________________ Orange 1973 Campervan. Rebuilt 1700cc with dual Solex carbs. Pertronix electronic points on stock distributor. Engine rebuild in progress (fall 2023). |
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Tom Powell Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005 Posts: 4855 Location: Kaneohe
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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote: |
... new alternator ... |
Beware of new alternators that short out on the back and fry the wiring. I'm a '69 camper generator person, but I've read many posts about people who have replaced their alternator. Something about the stud being to long. Search and read.
Aloha
tp |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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Any advice on getting distributor drive shaft lined up properly with lower end already together?
Throw the pulley on. Turning clockwise, watch the intake cam lobe on #1 through the lifter hole. The intake valve should have just closed the valve before lining up the tdc mark on the parting line of the case.
Alternator Type IV (4)
Tcash |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2012 Posts: 259 Location: Victoria
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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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Thank you, both great tips. The alternator post does look a bit long to me so I will check clearance.
Here's a few shots of when I had things apart. Prev builder liked silicone.
_________________ Orange 1973 Campervan. Rebuilt 1700cc with dual Solex carbs. Pertronix electronic points on stock distributor. Engine rebuild in progress (fall 2023). |
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Tom Powell Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005 Posts: 4855 Location: Kaneohe
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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote: |
... The alternator post does look a bit long to me so I will check clearance. ... |
There are quite a few posts from people that have fried their wiring when installing a new alternator. Problems with the post and/or washer:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=655415&highlight=alternator+short
EDITED:
Cutting the stud, replacing the washer, and an insulating boot would be belt and suspenders.
Aloha
tp
Last edited by Tom Powell on Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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timvw7476 Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013 Posts: 2180 Location: seattle
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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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Tom Powell wrote: |
whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote: |
... The alternator post does look a bit long to me so I will check clearance. ... |
There are quite a few posts from people that have fried their wiring when installing a new alternator. Problems with the post and/or washer:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=655415&highlight=alternator+short
An insulating boot:
would be belt and suspenders.
Aloha
tp |
Don't trust the boot alone, it can get abraded, open up & you've got a
mystery discharge,
to hack that B+ stud, leave the 2nd nut, drawn down, cut flush & draw the
nut off, so now you have viable lead-in threads. Looks like they're still
manufacturing time bombs. : l |
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BeauTrippie Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2012 Posts: 145 Location: Tennessee
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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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Did you find the source of the knocking now that you have it torn down? Mine is doing the same thing. I am going to pull the pump but want some other input. Thanks. _________________ 73 Bay Transporter
73 Super Beetle |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2012 Posts: 259 Location: Victoria
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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The knocking was caused by one of the cam bearings being pounded on, it had visible wear. Symptoms were knock that got louder as engine heated up, and went away with load. Put in new bearings all around. Shudder at 2000 RPM was caused by pressure plate not being centered on flywheel as machinist had removed material from flywheel edge which is needed as guide for pressure plate. _________________ Orange 1973 Campervan. Rebuilt 1700cc with dual Solex carbs. Pertronix electronic points on stock distributor. Engine rebuild in progress (fall 2023). |
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carltoncleans Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2012 Posts: 40 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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Wholly cow U have done alot. I went the buy one already to go route. Good for u. Hooe your on the road soon. Great documenting. |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2012 Posts: 259 Location: Victoria
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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Thanks. Yah when I do it again I'm thinking of getting a CS kit or similar- although a buddy is trying to get me to go Subaru. Some random bits got done while waiting for parts:
this is the worst of the rust underneath, put some por 15 on it to slow it for now.
redid vent window and scrapers. I hate getting that thing back in with new scrapers. I get mad just thinking about it
new vapour barrier and temp door card. saved the vinyl off the old one, might make a repro one day.
finally back to getting top end together.
stripped a rocker stud going to 18ft lbs instead of 10 thanks to Wilson book misprint. I hate that feeling of 'just a liiiiittle more and it'll start to snug up...' it never does!
and finally, to double check, does this look right for the12 degree distributor angle? confirmed #1 is at TDC through the spark plug hole and fan "0" is at top lined up with case parting line.
Aiming for Sunday. _________________ Orange 1973 Campervan. Rebuilt 1700cc with dual Solex carbs. Pertronix electronic points on stock distributor. Engine rebuild in progress (fall 2023). |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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aerosurfer Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012 Posts: 1602 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote: |
and finally, to double check, does this look right for the12 degree distributor angle? confirmed #1 is at TDC through the spark plug hole and fan "0" is at top lined up with case parting line.
Aiming for Sunday. |
You have to put the timing scale on to assure TDC, its not based on the case parting line on a T4 motor. or trust your eyes and cylinder #1 _________________ Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2012 Posts: 259 Location: Victoria
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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To help avoid shorts, I cut down the post and installed a smaller washer on the alternator.
Got the engine back together and managed not to strip anything else:)
Installed with trans in place
re filed the tops of the manifolds, new copper rings and heated up the copper rings on the bbq to soften the copper. loctite 514 on both sides of sealing rings
installed exhaust after getting the engine in, made it much easier and didn't worry about pressure on the head to exhaust seal, but definitely a 2 person job. I made sure all fasteners were really loose and the edges of the manifolds were rounded to avoid mangling the heads and affecting the final seal.
Yet again, braided rubber fails horribly after a few months of use. Found some better new rubber fuel hose, non pressurized, OK because it is not fuel injection.
static timed and hooked everything up, after start up, ran her for 20 minutes varying between 2 and 3000 rpm for break in. Noisey.
Shut off and did an oil change, sheen of metal bits but no chunks:)
ran up some big hills under load to break the rings in on the first drive and then did the full dual carb adjustment procedure (including timing, valves). tightened the exhaust nuts up a bit more at this point.
Completed her first trip successfully, 80km round trip.
ahhh...
Head temps maxed at 360 and were cooling nicely on the highway. typically around 320. Dakota gauge and harness, measuring ring under #3 spark plug.
Idle was fluctuating a bit, sometimes would run at 2000 (even after warm up), and sometimes at 1000... never died on me though and no backfiring.
hefty feeling up the hills but its a 1700...
On highway in 4th was at 4000 rmp at 60 mph. Is this about average?
Next I will redo timing and carb adjustment, check any fasteners I can see and do another oil change and see how things are going. Anything else to think about at this early stage?? _________________ Orange 1973 Campervan. Rebuilt 1700cc with dual Solex carbs. Pertronix electronic points on stock distributor. Engine rebuild in progress (fall 2023). |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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Hey!! You are on the road! Congratulations! _________________ .ssS! |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote: |
Completed her first trip successfully, 80km round trip.
ahhh... |
Hell yeah!, congratulations!
So far it all sounds good! _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2012 Posts: 259 Location: Victoria
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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Been pretty smooth sailing for the last bit until starting to adjust valves this morning...
I generally back the plugs out as there is too much compression to turn the engine over by hand.
Number Two was the first to come out and it was super tight- when it broke free it spun out with steady, but notable resistance. Checked threads and they were fairly clean (no metal). I remember one of the plugs was quite tight going in and out when I was assembling, I checked then too, to make sure it wasn't stripping, and didn't find any metal.
Tried to get #2 plug back in, first time around there was a bit of resistance but it popped out again, this time taking about a threads worth of aluminum with it...
Being very delicate, I tried threading the plug in a few times and it only goes about a quarter turn before binding. If I force it in I think there's a good chance of stripping the whole thing.
I'm not making any fast moves and I'm hoping this won't result in having to take a head off again.
Any suggestions? _________________ Orange 1973 Campervan. Rebuilt 1700cc with dual Solex carbs. Pertronix electronic points on stock distributor. Engine rebuild in progress (fall 2023). |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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Scary!, try a spark plug thread chaser and see how much of a fight it puts up. You might also try wrapping the socket extension in tape or something to bring it's diameter up to almost as big as the hole in the tin to help keep it aligned.
There are also thread chasers that go into the hole and then expand to do the cutting on the way out so the remaining lower threads become the guide, not sure where you'd find one of those, Lordco maybe? _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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whatdoesthisbuttondo? Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2012 Posts: 259 Location: Victoria
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! |
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Yes! Thank you!
Thread chaser worked. Careful on the angle, a bit of pressure to get it going, but found its place pretty quickly. Took it out every few threads, cleaned little metal flecks and grease that was on there to catch them, and reapplied grease.
Cleaned spark plug threads again, bit of anti-seize, started with old hose, and in.
One of those back tapping tools was incredibly hard to find locally, only available online.
Back on the road. _________________ Orange 1973 Campervan. Rebuilt 1700cc with dual Solex carbs. Pertronix electronic points on stock distributor. Engine rebuild in progress (fall 2023). |
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