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Where on the body is this 412 picture from?
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:49 pm    Post subject: Where on the body is this 412 picture from? Reply with quote

Hi everybody,

Just started posting and interested in moving from the fan club to the owner's club. I was looking at this 412 in the classifieds:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1871216

Let me first say it is a nice 4-door saloon. If the seller is on here, you have a good-looking 412. My question for the owner's club is about the picture of the rust. Where exactly is this picture on the body? I understand why the seller wanted a closeup, but this is like one of those games where you have an extreme closeup of some everyday item and you have to ID it. It looks like the point of view is in the front right fender well and that there is possibly a jacking point on the left side of the picture. That's my going hypothesis anyway.
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Lars S
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:34 am    Post subject: Re: Where on the body is this 412 picture from? Reply with quote

That "rust spot" should be in the front floor corner at the drivers side wheel house (lower right section in pic below). Yes there is a jack Point donut to the left.
Does not look just like a small rust hole.


/Lars S


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: Where on the body is this 412 picture from? Reply with quote

Conur with what Lars said.

A couple of things. Its not likely that an animal nest caused that rust. If its on the passenger side....its more commonly caused by water leakage from the very common right front fender mastic sealing and/or leakage at the fuel tank flap cable seal. I would also expect that you have some of the common right fender seam rust as well.

As for the fuel tank cleanout. When that is done.....they noted boiled out and repaired......in order to do that.....virtually all of the front suspension had to have been removed. If the vent lines and filler neck hoses were not also replaced at the same time....they WILL leak and depending on diligence you may need to have all of that out again.

Also.....pulling all of the suspension out disturbs a lot of parts that are a little long in the tooth anyway. It WILL need new shocks and struts.....so just plan on pulling it all and putting in new vent hoses, new centerlink and new ball joints. If the ball joints still check out......I can tell you where to get new boots for cheap.

I would request:

Pictures of the interior floor boards with mats and carpets pulled out. It takes 5 minutes to do that.

Detailed receipt from the gas tank shop.

Also....unless its been repainted proffessionally.....its going to have a lot of ills and potential rust spots around the seals and trim. You need a detailed picture of the rear hatch outside.

My verdict: this car was quite a bit overpriced at the previous $6000. Its just a little high at the $3750 its listed at now.

But.....it appears to be very complete.....it runs.....has all of its parts and appears to be straight. As examples like this are not only getting harder to find......they are getting older everyday and rotting where they stand just from leakage and not moving.....and destroying more and more parts.

So.....if you want a 412 and have the money......and are aware that other than getting it home you should not be driving this car until you go through the front suspension. ...and that your first order of work is:

1. Suspension to make sure its sound and does not destroy other parts.
2. All fuel lines
3. Brakes. ...soft lines, rebuild calipers and wheel cylinders
4. Go over the whole car, kill rust and seal leakage spots.....and I would buy a window seal kit now that they are available for the first time in about 35 years.

If you understand that the car even as is needs a lot of work to not destroy parts you canjot buy......and you have the money......I would buy this car.

All 411 and 412....need at least the level of work I listed. Most of them need far more.

This is a pretty good example. Ray
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Where on the body is this 412 picture from? Reply with quote

Lars,
Many thanks for the picture! I had a picture of a 412 variant from that angle and I could not spot the landmarks that I can clearly see in your figure. The location makes complete sense now. Whatever happened to just having some good old fashioned surface rust in the middle of a panel? Sad

Ray,
You are undoubtedly correct, in my limited type I and water-cooled experience, rust rarely has a cause so benign as what is described. I am sure the owner cleaned out a nest and that may have contributed, but the causes you are discussing are likely the root of the problem. Many thanks for the notes about suspension components. I have read the audi strut document and am looking forward to reading the others. I am beginning to come to grips with the fabrication required. I can't quote verse and line yet, but I am getting close to summarizing the main ideas. Smile

Many thanks for the helpful advice from both of you!
Dan
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: Where on the body is this 412 picture from? Reply with quote

Danno5 wrote:
Lars,
Many thanks for the picture! I had a picture of a 412 variant from that angle and I could not spot the landmarks that I can clearly see in your figure. The location makes complete sense now. Whatever happened to just having some good old fashioned surface rust in the middle of a panel? Sad

Ray,
You are undoubtedly correct, in my limited type I and water-cooled experience, rust rarely has a cause so benign as what is described. I am sure the owner cleaned out a nest and that may have contributed, but the causes you are discussing are likely the root of the problem. Many thanks for the notes about suspension components. I have read the audi strut document and am looking forward to reading the others. I am beginning to come to grips with the fabrication required. I can't quote verse and line yet, but I am getting close to summarizing the main ideas. Smile

Many thanks for the helpful advice from both of you!
Dan


Oh...and by the way...welcome!

Here is another view of the chassis picture that Lars posted. The red circle is the "knob" or jack donut Lars mentioned that is in the left hand side of that snap shot so you can orient yourself.
I added some contrast so you can see better.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Oh...also.....that rust picture in the ad.....looks to be on the drivers side looking aft..... and not the passenger side. As you can see from the chassis picture Lars posted....there is nothing forward of these jack point "knobs". So in the picture....you have the fender well in the foreground...the jack point donut to the left....and appear to be looking aft.

This would be a rusted battery tray. Common.

Ray
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Where on the body is this 412 picture from? Reply with quote

Ray,

Thanks for the welcome!

The battery mount for the rust? After pivoting things in my head some I can see your point-of-view. It's funny how one view gets stuck in your head and you have to twist your perspective. That would be nice, and familiar having owned a type I, if it is a battery mount issue.

Also, I feel a little stupid. I thought the picture Lars posted was so cool that I looked more closely to see how much swedish I could read. After awhile, I thought to myself "This sounds a lot like ad copy." Embarassed I think that was a page from the 1971 411 brochure that Lars kindly uploaded to the archives. Thanks for going easy on the newbie!
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:28 am    Post subject: Re: Where on the body is this 412 picture from? Reply with quote

Danno5 wrote:
Ray,

Thanks for the welcome!

The battery mount for the rust? After pivoting things in my head some I can see your point-of-view. It's funny how one view gets stuck in your head and you have to twist your perspective. That would be nice, and familiar having owned a type I, if it is a battery mount issue.

Also, I feel a little stupid. I thought the picture Lars posted was so cool that I looked more closely to see how much swedish I could read. After awhile, I thought to myself "This sounds a lot like ad copy." Embarassed I think that was a page from the 1971 411 brochure that Lars kindly uploaded to the archives. Thanks for going easy on the newbie!



Very Happy no problem! As we try to let people know. ...any time you start working on a 411/412....even if you have significant ACVW experience. ....you are effectively now a newby again. They are that different.

We try to get new owners into the right frame of mind for expectations.

First....having driven and owned type 1s and type 3s.....I can tell you that these are some of the coolest cars VW produced. They are so much more worked out than the other types. ...better power, better engine reliability, better comfort and room, better handling, better heat......but.....being that these were buiot a long time ago when things like strut suspension, fuel injection, electronics and unibody construction were relatively new......they are not pertect. They have some minor problems of their own.

Add this to 45+ years of age......and low parts availability. ....and you have your own level of headaches.

Many potential new owners really want one of these....but many have the type 1, 2 or 3 frame of mind. Looking for a quick new project to jump in and start driving on the weekend or to shows.

Unless you find one that an in the know owner has gone through carefully.....that will rarely be the case.

We want more of these on the road. We want new owners ro be happy. We usully have to slow them down and inject some reality. We don't want to scare people away.........but nothing is worse....and we have seen it many times.....than a new prospective owner buys a 411 or 412 assuming that they can just throw some quick money at it......get it to baseline drivable condition and just drive it around as a "rolling restoration".

That rarely works unless the right parts. ...mostly suspension parts....are replaced first as a group. And....you need to be ready to do some small fabrication.

Its not really expensive.....just time consuming.

Also so you know.....the battery is under the drivers seat. So its in a tray area. Between battery leakage and water from other leaks pooling in that low tray area.....we get rusting. There are a few items to look at here including the seat mount.

Ray
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Where on the body is this 412 picture from? Reply with quote

A conclusion to the mystery! I bought this 412 and the rust is on the passenger side right at the back of the wheel well. The detail shot in a previous post of ray's with the red circle is exactly correct.

That gives me an idea for a weekly puzzler. Smile
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Where on the body is this 412 picture from? Reply with quote

Congrats!!
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