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Dampcamper
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 788
Location: Rainy Portland, Oregon
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 Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... |
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| pomfritz wrote: |
| That and a 71 Datsun 510 were my early exposure to fixing my own cars. Something I avoided until recently. |
Well, you went and got a Vanagon so no more avoiding it now! 
You've got the hard start relay (good idea) so if somebody turns the switch to "start" you should be able to feel the relay "click" if you put your hand on it.
If no relay "click" then could be a bad ground for the relay or no juice coming back on the red/black wire from the ignition switch "start" contact.
The screwdriver check will confirm if your starter is good (or not). If the starter is good then it's probably the ignition switch or a connection, I don't think Jay's stuff breaks!
BTW, check that wire that got chafed especially if it uses the original crimp lug. Over time those lugs can lose their intimacy with the wire in the crimp area, if damaged w/ broken strands that could be a problem. Also if that is the red/black solenoid wire and it was shorting out there could have been enough current to overheat / melt your ignition switch; since there is no fuse in that wire you can get a lot of energy even if only for a few seconds while in "start" position. |
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pomfritz
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2014
Posts: 477
Location: Folsom, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:58 am Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... (Solved!) |
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Woohoo! It was...
A wire from the hard start relay had come out.
Kinda of funny how I was led to look at this in the morning. Something about the relay was in my head lately. This morning on my phone there was a picture of the kit on a site I was just checking out for unrelated parts the night before.
I looked at the picture and saw a ground wire and fuse. Decided to check it out on my van. Both seemed fine, though the ground screw needed some tightening. Didn't start, went back and looked around and noticed a random wire dangling nearby, looked around and saw it came out of the relay.
push it back in, "turns over" putt putt.
Thanks to everyone who helped. I now know a heck of a lot more about starters and solenoids than last week.
I was also looking at starter options, GW, VC or TDI? And do you replace an old unknown condition starter with a new one before it goes bad or just wait and see if it breaks down on a trip?
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83.5 233K. GW 2.3, SS exhaust, My German Frau named her Stefi |
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Ahwahnee
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9798
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:40 am Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... (Solved!) |
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| pomfritz wrote: |
| ...I was also looking at starter options, GW, VC or TDI? And do you replace an old unknown condition starter with a new one before it goes bad or just wait and see if it breaks down on a trip? |
Glad you found the problem and that it was something simple.
In my (admittedly limited) experience the starter does not usually die suddenly and completely but rather becomes balky or slower or other such signs of imminent demise.
As for a replacement, I got a rebuilt from O'Reilly's (or whoever they were then) with a lifetime guarantee honored coast to coast.
This seems to be a bit of a crapshoot though as the one I got has been fine for many years but others had less than spectacular results. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22641
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:48 am Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... (Solved!) |
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| pomfritz wrote: |
Woohoo! It was...
A wire from the hard start relay had come out.
Kinda of funny how I was led to look at this in the morning. Something about the relay was in my head lately. This morning on my phone there was a picture of the kit on a site I was just checking out for unrelated parts the night before.
I looked at the picture and saw a ground wire and fuse. Decided to check it out on my van. Both seemed fine, though the ground screw needed some tightening. Didn't start, went back and looked around and noticed a random wire dangling nearby, looked around and saw it came out of the relay.
push it back in, "turns over" putt putt.
Thanks to everyone who helped. I now know a heck of a lot more about starters and solenoids than last week.
I was also looking at starter options, GW, VC or TDI? And do you replace an old unknown condition starter with a new one before it goes bad or just wait and see if it breaks down on a trip? |
Yet another data point I can cherry pick to point out how an engineering solution to poor maintenance does not necessarily add reliability.
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pomfritz
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2014
Posts: 477
Location: Folsom, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:53 am Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... |
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Thanks for the info, always appreciate your learned feedback. I've never fretted much about parts on my cars as much as this one. Not sure it's a disease or a virtue. 😬
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83.5 233K. GW 2.3, SS exhaust, My German Frau named her Stefi |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22641
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:00 am Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... |
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The starter system is about as simple as can be.
12 VDC from battery, through ignition switch and starter switch (one and the same, but electrically separate)
Look for voltage drops from the starter wire at the solenoid from the battery. If you find a drop, trace back until you find where the loss is and replace. You will need someone to turn the key to the start position while you measure voltage at the disconnected solenoid wire.
Thick battery cables provide current to solenoid, which then routes it to the starter motor via a small braided battery cable. Both of these can fail. Clean connections and check cranking voltage with help of assistant.
Finally ground wires and cables have to be clean and not have resistance, just like the positive cables.
And thats it. If you get those components in order, you will crank happy.
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pomfritz
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2014
Posts: 477
Location: Folsom, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:08 am Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... |
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Abscate
I will say this. I've added just about everything Jay offers and feel they have by far improved what they intended to do. He is getting a replacement out right away and is making the wires a little longer as the original put a little stress on the relay when it was attached to the body. Seems like a normal improvement of a product based on user experience. And I am now a wee bit wiser than yesterday and my panic level on these things has definitely decreased.
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83.5 233K. GW 2.3, SS exhaust, My German Frau named her Stefi |
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:17 am Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... |
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Going into a panic level over a starting issue ?
Not yet, there's a lot more to be panicing over.
Small stuff.
Wait till the engine just stops, quits running for no reason at all.
Then you can grab the emergency bottle of xanax outa the glove box.
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T.K. |
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pomfritz
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2014
Posts: 477
Location: Folsom, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:18 am Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... |
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Regarding ground wires...
What do you think of GW selling beefier ground wires? I've cleaned most of mine recently. In my limited ownership have not had an issue with these grounds causing problems. I understand they have multiple motivations for offering these, would one of these be because it actually is an improvement?
I'm probably a good target for them. Yeah I'll work on my van but sell me something that might prevent another trip underneath, however minute.
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83.5 233K. GW 2.3, SS exhaust, My German Frau named her Stefi |
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pomfritz
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2014
Posts: 477
Location: Folsom, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:23 am Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... |
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TK
I'm building up my immunity. Takes a while. From where I started, making good progress. Don't open the hood and barf anymore, at least on 30 year old cars. We have a Prius, (insert barf emoji here).
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Ahwahnee
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9798
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:50 am Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... |
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| pomfritz wrote: |
| Regarding ground wires... |
I addition to the stock grounds, I added two ground cables.
One goes from the body to the starter (yellow arrows):
The other from the body (below the coil) to the A/C mount (I think that is the A/C mount:
Okay - that one may have been in lieu of a badly corroded braided cable.
I can't swear that either is necessary, but certainly no harm done. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22641
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:28 am Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... |
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| pomfritz wrote: |
Abscate
I will say this. I've added just about everything Jay offers and feel they have by far improved what they intended to do. He is getting a replacement out right away and is making the wires a little longer as the original put a little stress on the relay when it was attached to the body. Seems like a normal improvement of a product based on user experience. And I am now a wee bit wiser than yesterday and my panic level on these things has definitely decreased. |
Im fully supportive of people putting what they want on their cars, and Ive got more than my fair share of hacks on my cars. I do see a recurring theme of posts of people trying to sort out hot start relay problems that could have been avoided by solving the root cause first.
There is a lot of sense of mystery about car electrics and they really are one of the simplest systems to troubleshoot - the simpler you keep the circuits.
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pomfritz
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2014
Posts: 477
Location: Folsom, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... |
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Love the labeling! You might have a nice little side business in that somewhere.
Just surprised with all the metal touching metal that some of these grounds are even an issue.
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Dampcamper
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 788
Location: Rainy Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: So, 1/2 hour later won't start... |
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| pomfritz wrote: |
Just surprised with all the metal touching metal that some of these grounds are even an issue. |
When you crank the starter it draws a hundred or more amps depending on various things. That is arc-welding range current, enough energy to melt metal.
The rubber bushings that much of the engine/trans assembly mounts through are great insulators. This leaves very few good ground paths from the engine to the frame. If you try to force that current through, say, your shift linkage (because of no or poor bonding straps) then you could damage that or your transaxle, maybe getting pits from sparking at loose connections internally. Or maybe the CV joints in the axles would get pitted from sparking. This would be very bad for them.
Thus the grounding / bonding jumper/s. It's always OK to add an extra jumper or two between chassis and engine/transaxle. Use #6 or heavier wire, if too light they could become "fusible links". You don't need to use the braided jumper but can if you want. Round wire works just as well.
Glad you got the problem fixed, raises the self-confidence level too! |
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