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khalimadeath
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Joined: June 24, 2014
Posts: 768
Location: Reno, NV
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 Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:39 pm Post subject: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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So I've been searching around and scouting out the classifieds. I am learning some information. I also have the classic "How to Rebuild Your Volkswagen air-Cooled Engine" book. I am trying to learn myself however there are random questions that I know I will have and I plan on posting pictures of my progress as I go. I figured I would start a thread here for help and to share my pictures and info as I go.
I am starting with a bare 1600 block (early) with most of the head studs. I want to build it into a 1776cc dp motor for my Bay window bus. From what I have read is its a great option for torque.
I plan on running a doghouse style fan shroud with a 38amp gen (wider fan obviously) 205T distributor with 34 pict 3 carb. Then otherwise just swapping everything else over from my current 1600sp motor.
I currently have approximately $2000 to spend. I will likely need to buy some tools but that can come from another budget. I have a good amount of tools handy.
This will be my first time rebuilding a motor. I have pulled motors and swapped transmissions and done almost everything you can do without getting into the bottom end.
Based on this information I just have a few questions to start.
-What are the parts I should start looking for right away? (before the machine shop)
- Besides an Aline-bore what should I tell the machine shop to do while the motor is there? Should I buy the cylinder heads to be bored or find some pre bored for the larger pistons?
-As far as buying a crank where should I look? New used or NOS?
-I'd like to put a mild cam upgrade in, what compliments this motor without taking away from reliability.
I guess we can start with that. I don't want to go for big power, I just want something with a little more power than my 1600sp and reliable enough to drive across the country. I do NOT like using cheap Chinese parts and would prefer as much things as possible to either be German, NOS or just High quality.
Thanks for any input
-Zach
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FeelthySanchez
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Joined: February 03, 2011
Posts: 1349
Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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For a noob, probably best to source all needed parts from the same jobber. Tell them exactly what you wish to build & source a reputable machine shop.
At minimum, sounds like ya'll will need DP heads (something finished, turn-key, ready to bolt-on - like the latest from CB), DP intake & a C/W crank.
At the machine shop, have the case opened for 90.5s, add FFF & SPEND THE EXTRA COIN TO BALANCE THE ROTATING MASS.
With the decent budget noted, shouldn't be too tough.
G' luck !!
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| modok wrote: |
| I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
| Ryan Tucker wrote: |
| Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
| OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
Last edited by FeelthySanchez on Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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67rustavenger 
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Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9769
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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Zach,
You have been here a while so you know that the best thing that you can do is to search. Many of the answers to your questions are in the stickies above.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=387513
A new case can cost up to $1K and that's just the case. Setting your sites on mostly German parts is going to drive the cost of your build up even further.
As for the first parts you should get. I would imagine a case first. Then decide on the crank and rods that you want to use in your build. Then a cam to help your bus get up hills a little better. Once you have all of those parts, it's time to measure things and see what bearings you will need. Take the case, crank, rods, cam, and bearings to a competent machinist. A good machinist can perform the align bore just enough to get it aligned. Then he can machine the outside of the bearings to fit the case without taking the case up .0020".
That's a start. But there will be a lot of knowledgeable guys than I that will come in here and give better advice than I can give you. I'm just trying to give you basic guidance.
Good Luck on your build.
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I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
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bugguy1967
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Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4343
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
Zach,
You have been here a while so you know that the best thing that you can do is to search. Many of the answers to your questions are in the stickies above.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=387513
A new case can cost up to $1K and that's just the case. Setting your sites on mostly German parts is going to drive the cost of your build up even further.
As for the first parts you should get. I would imagine a case first. Then decide on the crank and rods that you want to use in your build. Then a cam to help your bus get up hills a little better. Once you have all of those parts, it's time to measure things and see what bearings you will need. Take the case, crank, rods, cam, and bearings to a competent machinist. A good machinist can perform the align bore just enough to get it aligned. Then he can machine the outside of the bearings to fit the case without taking the case up .0020".
That's a start. But there will be a lot of knowledgeable guys than I that will come in here and give better advice than I can give you. I'm just trying to give you basic guidance.
Good Luck on your build. |
I've never heard of that bearing mod. Not saying it can't be done, but I've just never heard of it. The center main bearings are not round until they get pushed into the case. How does he squeeze them to cut them correctly? He's gotta deepen the dowel holes and possibly oil grooves too. |
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bugguy1967
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Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4343
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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| Yes, use search. As for tools to get by: flywheel lock, cheap ring compressor, plastigauge, Harbor Freight magnetic base dial indicator, 2 sets of good feeler gauge sets, plate glass piece for sanding rocker thrust surfaces, oil pump housing, etc, adjustable pushrod, deck height tool, CC tool, torque helper, clutch alignment tool |
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khalimadeath
Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2014
Posts: 768
Location: Reno, NV
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
Zach,
You have been here a while so you know that the best thing that you can do is to search. Many of the answers to your questions are in the stickies above.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=387513
A new case can cost up to $1K and that's just the case. Setting your sites on mostly German parts is going to drive the cost of your build up even further.
As for the first parts you should get. I would imagine a case first. Then decide on the crank and rods that you want to use in your build. Then a cam to help your bus get up hills a little better. Once you have all of those parts, it's time to measure things and see what bearings you will need. Take the case, crank, rods, cam, and bearings to a competent machinist. A good machinist can perform the align bore just enough to get it aligned. Then he can machine the outside of the bearings to fit the case without taking the case up .0020".
That's a start. But there will be a lot of knowledgeable guys than I that will come in here and give better advice than I can give you. I'm just trying to give you basic guidance.
Good Luck on your build. |
I have been searching and I am finding good stuff but nothing that completely answers my questions. I mostly find a lot of threads telling people to search and not answering the question which is not helpful. I see a lot of abbreviations which is also not helpful. I have gone through a good part of the stickies and nothing specific to my situation has been found yet.
Also I do have a Block (case).
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blienemann
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Joined: February 21, 2009
Posts: 125
Location: Richmond, Va
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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Check out this site...
http://carcraftstore.com/deluxeenginekit69or74mm.aspx
I have bought quite a bit from them and they ship quick and have been helpful when I bought the wrong items with returning them. And I have compared shipped totals against many of their competitors and they are almost always cheaper.
If your case isn't bored out yet and you need to buy a crank, you may want to think about a 1760. This uses a 74mm crank and 87mm pistons. This allows you to use stock heads and case. 87mm pistons could be the risk in a bus but I hear many folks using them in 1641s without an issue (same piston size with the stock crank).
I built a 1760 with a c35 cam, 1.25 rockers and dual 34icts and am pretty happy with it. If you use stock length rods you will need 0.9mm cylinder shims though.
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FeelthySanchez
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Joined: February 03, 2011
Posts: 1349
Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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Please advise us re what condition this used case is in?
| khalimadeath wrote: |
| Also I do have a Block (case). |
_________________
| modok wrote: |
| I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
| Ryan Tucker wrote: |
| Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
| OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26788
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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| khalimadeath wrote: |
-What are the parts I should start looking for right away? (before the machine shop)??
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Heads, case, crank&flywheel, are the important parts to have in hand, because they have the most delay, they can hold you up for weeks possibly months. Pretty much everything else can be found quick, in a week max, except maybe custom cams.
| khalimadeath wrote: |
- Besides an Aline-bore what should I tell the machine shop to do while the motor is there? Should I buy the cylinder heads to be bored or find some pre bored for the larger pistons? |
Whatever you want to do, whatever needs to be done, whatever you don't want to do yourself. If you want to clean and measure the parts then of course that saves money, or, have them do it, which costs more. You could have them check, clean, machine, prepare every nut and bolt to be ready it for assembly, or should be able to, but VW guys generally don't, but could. If you buy new crank or heads from a good shop, have them machine them to be what you want before shipping, instead of buying them first and then having somebody else do it. Saves time and expense.
| khalimadeath wrote: |
-As far as buying a crank where should I look? New used or NOS? |
Rest assured your engine already has one inside. If it is good, use it. If it isn't, look for another. If you can't find a use-able one for 65$ or less, send me a PM and I'll solve that for ya. I would advise you 8-dowel it, and POSSIBLY balance the crank/flywheel assembly, if budget allows. If the engine won't be going over 5000 rpm (well, besides maybe a few seconds here and there) then a stock German steel crank is fine.
Don't buy a new "cast" stock crank nor cast flywheel, you can get then for the same cost as re-working OE parts, but it's not really worth it. A used crank should be checked for size and straightness, and if you don't want to do that yourself then have somebody else do it. If it needs to be reground do that last after the case and rods and bearings are done, so it can be ground to fit in the actual bearings. If you elect to build a higher revving engine or stroker then you'll want a counterwighted crank, and in that case I'd recommend you buy a crank and flywheel assembly already balanced and ready to go from DPR.
What does the rest of this engine consist of?
Many choices and possibilities will depend on exhaust system and carburetor(s)s used, even vehicle gearing and driving style.
Are you sure you want to use 10mm head studs? I think you can, but, does it have case savers? does it need case savers? Have you removed the head studs yet? Check line bore? check lifter bores? Check spread and main seal bore?
Generally, cranks outlive heads and cases, so you can find a lot of used cranks and flywheels no problem. Good used cases for a BUS using a rear hanger are harder to find, as many of the good used cases currently existing came from bugs that didn't have mounts for a rear hanger. |
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richparker
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Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6982
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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As soon as I started adding up the price of engine parts and knowing I'm no engine builder....I went out and found the closest ACVW builder in my area. Best thing I've done, it starts everyone and F-ing rips.
If you have to buy a new crank and rods, spend the extra money on a 78mm crank and rods. Your bus will move a lot better with the extra torque.
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jpaull
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Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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Theres no reason to get thinwall 87mm pistons when 88's are twice as thick and are slip in to the stock case with no machine work.
If you do machine the case, theres no reason to get 90.5's when 92TW's are thickwall and more cc's.
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[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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vwracerdave
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:51 am Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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I would rather build a 1600 DP with dual IDF's then mess around with a 1776 SP and a stock carb.
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Zundfolge1432
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Joined: June 13, 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:48 am Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| I would rather build a 1600 DP with dual IDF's then mess around with a 1776 SP and a stock carb. |
And for a period restoration I like a single port 1776 lots of low end torque and the heads don't crack like dual ports. Ain't that America?? |
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blienemann
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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| jpaull wrote: |
Theres no reason to get thinwall 87mm pistons when 88's are twice as thick and are slip in to the stock case with no machine work.
If you do machine the case, theres no reason to get 90.5's when 92TW's are thickwall and more cc's. |
I agree with you on both if the OP has access to a machine shop who can perform all of the work needed.
At the same point, if all you have is a case, and you are going to need to acquire all of the remaining engine parts, and can get the machine work done, why limit to the stock crank and rods with a smaller bore piston? You are already going to be in the engine and will be machining the case. It wouldn't be much more to clearance it for a 78mm crank with 92B Pistons and shorter stroke rods. At the end of the day, the cost for larger pistons is negligible to equal and the increase in rod cost won't be much (and worth it).
The issue then would be down to that 34 pict 3.
Just my .02
Whatever you do, it is your build. Enjoy it and measure everything 10 times.
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jpaull
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Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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| blienemann wrote: |
| jpaull wrote: |
Theres no reason to get thinwall 87mm pistons when 88's are twice as thick and are slip in to the stock case with no machine work.
If you do machine the case, theres no reason to get 90.5's when 92TW's are thickwall and more cc's. |
I agree with you on both if the OP has access to a machine shop who can perform all of the work needed.
At the same point, if all you have is a case, and you are going to need to acquire all of the remaining engine parts, and can get the machine work done, why limit to the stock crank and rods with a smaller bore piston? You are already going to be in the engine and will be machining the case. It wouldn't be much more to clearance it for a 78mm crank with 92B Pistons and shorter stroke rods. At the end of the day, the cost for larger pistons is negligible to equal and the increase in rod cost won't be much (and worth it).
The issue then would be down to that 34 pict 3.
Just my .02
Whatever you do, it is your build. Enjoy it and measure everything 10 times. |
I hear ya, the "might as well as do "this" while its apart turns into a disease that never stops. The list is endless. If you give a guy just getting into vw's too many choices, it gets garaged, then never finished. If its a guy that built multiple engines, sure, make everything a 82+ stroke I say.
Pistons are easy, cost nothing more one or the other, so choose the biggest/strongest. I would rather drive a 1835-1915 with a pict 34, and add carbs later. doesn't have to be chosen now. Annnnnnnnndddddddddd the car is still mobile, interest is still there and progress moves forward. its a lot easier to upgrade carbs then yank engine out, pull carbs, pull heads, pistons/cylinders blah blah just killed another weekend/month/year. And don't get married or cranky girlfriend or that damn bus is condemned.
I drove a 1915 with a pic34 to work every day and was one of the funnest cars.
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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khalimadeath
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Joined: June 24, 2014
Posts: 768
Location: Reno, NV
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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I am sorry for the confusion This is what I have..
An AH case pretty much bare. It was given to me by a friend. If useable i'd like to use it.
I also have a running Bus with a 1600sp motor that is mostly stock and it runs fine.
I am not opposed to going with a different set up than I was originally thinking of. I just want something good for a bus that is loaded up with a ton of camping shit going up Donner pass. I made it up that mountain, loaded up, in third gear going about 40mph a month ago.. so I assume my current motor is in decent shape. Now as I like the idea of going with a close to period correct motor I dont know if that will get me the best performance, and by that I dont mean going fast. I dont really care to have high HP mostly just good solid torque numbers. If I wanted HP I would go with a subi swap.
Either way thanks for all the information so far. As I am eager for the knowledge of learning to build a motor, its starting to look like for my budget, I might be able to just buy a pre built long block that is close to my specifications. from there I can play with the carb and dizzy set up. I will be reusing my current flywheel with the new motor as well. (recently resurfaced).
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Cusser
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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| khalimadeath wrote: |
| I just want something good for a bus that is loaded up with a ton of camping shit going up Donner pass. |
I'd bring my own food there....
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modok
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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Case has no mounting points for engine hanger, so it won't fit your bus.
Do you plan to use a bracket that uses the oil pump to attach the rear hanger?
I don't think that's a good idea |
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khalimadeath
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Joined: June 24, 2014
Posts: 768
Location: Reno, NV
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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| modok wrote: |
Case has no mounting points for engine hanger, so it won't fit your bus.
Do you plan to use a bracket that uses the oil pump to attach the rear hanger?
I don't think that's a good idea |
Aww crap I didnt notice that..
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khalimadeath
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Joined: June 24, 2014
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Location: Reno, NV
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Building a 1776cc motor from a 1600cc block |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| khalimadeath wrote: |
| I just want something good for a bus that is loaded up with a ton of camping shit going up Donner pass. |
I'd bring my own food there.... |
lol
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