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Robert Chambers
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Joined: August 11, 2005
Posts: 216
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 Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:17 am Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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JeeWee,
Yes, the Bus master cylinder is 22.2 mm that fits bus up to 1966. I do use the type 3 rear brake cylinders. My '56 Oval stops very well with this combination. I think disc brakes in the front would be better. But, I like using the old school parts to keep that Vintage Speed theme with my car. Good luck with yours!
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Erik G
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Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13263
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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please note that the diameter of the master cylinder effects the feel of the pedal, not necessarily the effectiveness of the stopping
Porsche used a 19mm master until they went to power boosted brakes in 78. That's some very very fast P cars that stop very very well.
If you are going to swap master cylinders, do it because dual chamber is better than single, not for a bigger bore and same single chamber
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RichardinNZ
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2011
Posts: 280
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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I'd always assumed that smaller diameter gave a harder feel and more pressure? Am I wrong?
I agree about old school parts. I think a new rear disc setup would have been more cost effective than my Type3 drums but not as interesting!
Richard
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Richard
'58 Beetle; NZ Assembled
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j-dub
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Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 865
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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Smaller Master Cylinder bore and or larger wheel cylinder will give more pressure to the brake shoe however it will take more petal travel.
Larger Master Cylinder bore and or smaller wheel cylinder will give less pressure to the brake shoe and it will take less petal travel.
I know this is contrary to what some people believe.
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JeeWee
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Joined: February 05, 2011
Posts: 120
Location: Garijp, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:29 am Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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Hi Robert, do you use the type 3 drum brake cilinder on all 4 drums? So front and rear?
Like j-dub/Eric said, I first would like to try with the 19mm master cylinder, as bigger is not always better indeed!
Just to ask if I am right, if I would keep the 19mm master and swap the front drum brake cylinders from 19,05 to 23,3mm, would that improve the stopping power on the front brakes? So perhaps a better balance between front and rear? |
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Erik G
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Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13263
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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that is not an easy swap, I've never seen type 3 front wheel cylinders on a beetle. There are 4 on the front, like a bus
early typ3 below. Also, all of the early typ3 parts are very hard to find
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j-dub
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 865
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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| JeeWee wrote: |
Hi Robert, do you use the type 3 drum brake cilinder on all 4 drums? So front and rear?
Like j-dub/Eric said, I first would like to try with the 19mm master cylinder, as bigger is not always better indeed!
Just to ask if I am right, if I would keep the 19mm master and swap the front drum brake cylinders from 19,05 to 23,3mm, would that improve the stopping power on the front brakes? So perhaps a better balance between front and rear? |
What you can do is use the 23.8mm bore front wheel cylinders for a 1972 super beetle to get more stopping power.
For reference: The 58-64 bug brakes come stock with 22mm up front and 19.05 mm in the rear. What ever end you believe needs more braking you can put the 23.8 super beetle wheel cylinder. The mounting hole for the bolt needs to be hand filed ever so slightly.
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Robert Chambers
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2005
Posts: 216
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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| JeeWee wrote: |
Hi Robert, do you use the type 3 drum brake cilinder on all 4 drums? So front and rear?
Like j-dub/Eric said, I first would like to try with the 19mm master cylinder, as bigger is not always better indeed!
Just to ask if I am right, if I would keep the 19mm master and swap the front drum brake cylinders from 19,05 to 23,3mm, would that improve the stopping power on the front brakes? So perhaps a better balance between front and rear? |
I have 1965 Beetle front brake drums, shoes and cylinders. Type III 5 lug drums, shoes and cylinders on the rear. This combination with the 1966 Bus master cylinder stops very well. I have a 1968 long axle trans and a dual port engine. So the cars weight is heavier than a stock 36er and split transaxle would be in the rear. I just know it works for me.
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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| j-dub wrote: |
| JeeWee wrote: |
Hi Robert, do you use the type 3 drum brake cilinder on all 4 drums? So front and rear?
Like j-dub/Eric said, I first would like to try with the 19mm master cylinder, as bigger is not always better indeed!
Just to ask if I am right, if I would keep the 19mm master and swap the front drum brake cylinders from 19,05 to 23,3mm, would that improve the stopping power on the front brakes? So perhaps a better balance between front and rear? |
What you can do is use the 23.8mm bore front wheel cylinders for a 1972 super beetle to get more stopping power.
For reference: The 58-64 bug brakes come stock with 22mm up front and 19.05 mm in the rear. What ever end you believe needs more braking you can put the 23.8 super beetle wheel cylinder. The mounting hole for the bolt needs to be hand filed ever so slightly. |
You should not swap front wheel cylinders to the rear of 1967 or older brakes. The rear brakes are 30mm wide so using any 58 or newer front wheel cylinder on the rear will put the shoes at a funny angle.
The larger wheel cylinders installed on the front will increase front braking. It will shift your brake balance forward and reduce the chance of the rear wheels locking up.
There are 54-early58 oval style brakes. They are 30mm wide front and rear and the wheel cylinders could swapped if needed for brake balance.
There are 58-64 brakes. They are 40mm wide front and 30mm wide rear. They use narrow strait slot adjusters and narrow slot wheel cylinders because these are locating points for the pads. The backing plate has only 2 locating points just outside of the hold down springs at the middle of each shoe.
There are 65 and newer front brakes. They are 40mm wide. The backing plates have 6 shoe locating points on them (3 per shoe) and use wide angle slot adjusters and wide slot wheel cylinders.
There are 65-67 rear brakes. They are much like newer brakes, with 6 shoe locating points on the backing plate and angle wide slot adjusters, but still 30mm wide. The wheel cylinders and shoes are 2 year only.
There are 68 and newer rear brakes. They are 40mm wide. The backing plates have 6 shoe locating points on them (3 per shoe) and use wide angle slot adjusters and wide slot wheel cylinders. Wheel cylinders can be swapped with other 40mm brakes and even super beetle front wheel cylinders with minor fitting.
These are the functional differences at a glance. The year of other changes don't match brake refinements so there are some unique parts, like 1965 only backing plates because they are designed for link pin spindles.
I've considered swapping the brakes on my '57 that I drive more with my '64 beach buggy that is lighter and sees only summer use. The harder to get old parts would last longer, and I could run front wheel cylinders at both ends in my buggy for 50/50 braking (it is a Berry Mini-T, so the front is very light.)
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j-dub
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 865
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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| EVfun wrote: |
You should not swap front wheel cylinders to the rear of 1967 or older brakes. The rear brakes are 30mm wide so using any 58 or newer front wheel cylinder on the rear will put the shoes at a funny angle.
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I respect your opinion, you do seam to have knowledge of the beetle braking system. I have personally done it and the brake shoes line up just like the 19mm wheel cylinders. John@aircooled sells them especially for this purpose, he calls them supper stoppers. Many of the old VW books also recommend this.
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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| j-dub wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
You should not swap front wheel cylinders to the rear of 1967 or older brakes. The rear brakes are 30mm wide so using any 58 or newer front wheel cylinder on the rear will put the shoes at a funny angle.
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I respect your opinion, you do seam to have knowledge of the beetle braking system. I have personally done it and the brake shoes line up just like the 19mm wheel cylinders. John@aircooled sells them especially for this purpose, he calls them supper stoppers. Many of the old VW books also recommend this. |
Part numbers please! I would love to find options to put larger rear wheel cylinders in my beach buggy because the Berry Mini-T moves the seating back and really leaves the front end light (or for that matter, smaller bore front wheel cylinders that fit.) I'm running 58-64 brakes so I am stuck with early front brake lockup unless I use a proportioning valve on the front. I have been looking at making spacers so I could use 19mm bore rear wheel cylinders on the front (if I'm right it needs to be a 0.1 inch spacer between the wheel cylinder and backing plate.)
In 1958 when the front brakes changed from the oval design (30mm wide) to the common 58-54 design (front 40mm wide) the front track increased 15mm (7.5mm per side.) A similar change happened in 1968 when the rear brakes where widened to 40mm.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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j-dub
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 865
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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I thinking you are getting hung up with bore size vs physical size. Have you ever compared a 36mm dellorto to a 45 dellorto? The outside size is exactly the same, it is the inside that changes.
You could swap your 22mm fronts to the rear and the 19mm rears to the front. Even better is leave the fronts and put the 23.8mm from a 1972 super beetle in the rear. The only modification is to lightly file the mounting hole you use to bolt the wheel cylinder to the backing plate.
This thread is a bit messy but it shows that it works well.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=547886&start=0
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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| j-dub wrote: |
I thinking you are getting hung up with bore size vs physical size. Have you ever compared a 36mm dellorto to a 45 dellorto? The outside size is exactly the same, it is the inside that changes.
You could swap your 22mm fronts to the rear and the 19mm rears to the front. Even better is leave the fronts and put the 23.8mm from a 1972 super beetle in the rear. The only modification is to lightly file the mounting hole you use to bolt the wheel cylinder to the backing plate.
This thread is a bit messy but it shows that it works well.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=547886&start=0 |
No, it is the step cut where cylinder fits into the backing plate that is the spacing problem. If you compare the front and rear wheel cylinders from a 58-67 Bug you will see they are not the same, resulting in the slot not being the same distance from the backing plate. In 1968 the rear brakes where widened to 40mm and many parts became interchangeable. The thread you cite is about swapping parts in 1968 and newer brakes. They offer more part swapping options because both ends used 40mm wide shoes.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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j-dub
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Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 865
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Brake upgrade advice |
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http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Wheel-Cylinder-Rear-S...linder.htm
This is what I purchased, maybe send a message to aircooled.net to clarify.
I later heard about the Super beetle wheel cylinder and thought that it was the same.
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