Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Intermittent Engine Knocking
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
VanagonPDX
Samba Member


Joined: April 25, 2012
Posts: 114
Location: Portland Oregon
VanagonPDX is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:31 pm    Post subject: Intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

I have this knock that has become a constant source of fear, or at the very least uncertainty. I know the hydraulic lifters will often loose their oil if sitting for a while, causing the engine to knock until they get pumped back up. But this seems to come even after driving for a while.

Last week I did an oil change (Delo 15W40) and used a Manh filter from GoWesty. My understanding was that this filter should resolve the lifter knock associated with them flattening out. Today, I drove to Bend (~30min drive at 55mph) and it was quiet the whole way. Then, got back to Redmond and stopped in at a store and it was knocking, and knocked the rest of the way home. Any ideas? Could it in any way be associated with poor fuel flow? (I ask as my pump is cavitating as of yesterday and is another project I am trying to resolve, as I replaced the white block filter last week as well).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
candyman
Samba Trout Slayer


Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 2694
Location: Missoula MT
candyman is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

Is it a knock or a tick? Lifters tick, not knock. Rods knock and then bam! Do you have any exhaust leaks?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VanagonPDX
Samba Member


Joined: April 25, 2012
Posts: 114
Location: Portland Oregon
VanagonPDX is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

Definitely sounds like what I have always associated with the a noisy lifter. In the past, every so often, it would have that knocking sound when I had let it sit a bit, then would take it for a run and it would stop. This sounds the same, but is popping up after being ran a little while - almost as though the heat from the engine it lowering the viscosity and thus letting it knock. But, 15W40 is a decently heavy oil.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
candyman
Samba Trout Slayer


Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 2694
Location: Missoula MT
candyman is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

An exhaust leak can certainly sound like a lifter tick. Check around for any exhaust leaks. An exhaust leak before the o2 sensor can cause your engine to run rich, look at you tail pipe for excessive black soot. It helps if you have a stethocope
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VanagonPDX
Samba Member


Joined: April 25, 2012
Posts: 114
Location: Portland Oregon
VanagonPDX is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

She definitely has an exhaust leak, but this seems to be in addition to that sound. I suppose the heat could be causing the leak to become louder/sound different with the pipes increasing in temperature.

Would a rod knock be intermittent? Some days she sounds fine, then others, this knocking sound. I just drove to Portland this weekend, did fine, but coming back was low on power. I chalked that up to this fuel issue that is causing my fuel pump to whine.

I really hope this is not an engine issue. I just bought this vanagon about two months ago and have already replaced the transmission Sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bluebus86
Banned


Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075

bluebus86 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

sticky lifters make noise. a filter change from fram to mahle fixed it for me, but it was only noisey for a few blocks, the filter stppoed that.

try many oil changes, dirty oil can clog lifters. if that fails, you can pop them out and clean them. and pump them up.

do not mix the lifters, rockers nor pushrods, all go back in same spot, in same orientation. lable with marked tape to prevent screw ups.


hopefully with some oil changes and clean living this will resolve, else pull them


good luck, may this be an uplifting experience for you and your van. Shocked
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information

Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Howesight
Samba Member


Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3260
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Howesight is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

Poor fuel flow will not induce lifters to pump down, period. These issues are unrelated.

The Mann oil filter will also do nothing to prevent lifter leak-down, although it is definitely the proper filter to use. The only time you need to worry that lifter noise is indicative of a serious problem is when you have no lifter noise while driving, but at some point during the drive, lifter noise commences. In that case, you have a serious problem.

It is very common for lifter noise to occur if you start the engine from cold, run it very briefly, (say, to car jockyey on your driveway, as many often do), and then run the van the next day or a few days later.

In the short term, the best fix is to add as much as a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil just before an oil change and run it that way for a few days or a longish drive. Don't do this in high ambient temperatures or just before high-rpm driving, since the MMO thins out the oil a lot. At oil change time, add one quarter of a quart to your new oil fill. MMO works to clean out the gum and varnish in the lifter check valves, making them work as the factory intended.
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bluebus86
Banned


Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075

bluebus86 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
Poor fuel flow will not induce lifters to pump down, period. These issues are unrelated.

The Mann oil filter will also do nothing to prevent lifter leak-down, although it is definitely the proper filter to use. The only time you need to worry that lifter noise is indicative of a serious problem is when you have no lifter noise while driving, but at some point during the drive, lifter noise commences. In that case, you have a serious problem.

It is very common for lifter noise to occur if you start the engine from cold, run it very briefly, (say, to car jockyey on your driveway, as many often do), and then run the van the next day or a few days later.

In the short term, the best fix is to add as much as a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil just before an oil change and run it that way for a few days or a longish drive. Don't do this in high ambient temperatures or just before high-rpm driving, since the MMO thins out the oil a lot. At oil change time, add one quarter of a quart to your new oil fill. MMO works to clean out the gum and varnish in the lifter check valves, making them work as the factory intended.


the correct filter does have the backflow valve that rapidly pumped up lifters that when using the fram which lacks that valve would take several blocks of driving to pump up. this is my expereince.
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information

Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VanagonPDX
Samba Member


Joined: April 25, 2012
Posts: 114
Location: Portland Oregon
VanagonPDX is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
The only time you need to worry that lifter noise is indicative of a serious problem is when you have no lifter noise while driving, but at some point during the drive, lifter noise commences. In that case, you have a serious problem.


Well... that is not comforting, as that is sort of what I am working with. Quiet this morning, drove to Bend and back (~40 miles total at 55mph), and then stopped in at Oriellys for a fuel filter and noticed a fairly audible tapping/knocking sound. I just finished swapping out the fuel filter (which did not resolve my cavitating fuel pump), and started it up - the engine was quiet as could be. There is a definite exhaust leak at where the two manifolds connect with the J pipe. My optimistic side is hoping that the heat of the run is just causing the metal to expand and make the sound louder, and is not a knock at all. (Sadly, I don't think this is what i am hearing).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VanagonPDX
Samba Member


Joined: April 25, 2012
Posts: 114
Location: Portland Oregon
VanagonPDX is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

Took a metal rod and placed it against my ear and then against the engine around the end of each cylinder. One cylinder definitely has a louder knock than the other three. Like a little jackhammer doing some work in there Sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
candyman
Samba Trout Slayer


Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 2694
Location: Missoula MT
candyman is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

VanagonPDX wrote:
Took a metal rod and placed it against my ear and then against the engine around the end of each cylinder. One cylinder definitely has a louder knock than the other three. Like a little jackhammer doing some work in there Sad


Bummer. Next step pop the valve covers and check the valves, esp on the on cylinder that seems to be making the noise. Then i suggest a leak down test
Still worth doing a run if MMO to see if that helps


Last edited by candyman on Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50255

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

bluebus86 wrote:
Howesight wrote:
Poor fuel flow will not induce lifters to pump down, period. These issues are unrelated.

The Mann oil filter will also do nothing to prevent lifter leak-down, although it is definitely the proper filter to use. The only time you need to worry that lifter noise is indicative of a serious problem is when you have no lifter noise while driving, but at some point during the drive, lifter noise commences. In that case, you have a serious problem.

It is very common for lifter noise to occur if you start the engine from cold, run it very briefly, (say, to car jockyey on your driveway, as many often do), and then run the van the next day or a few days later.

In the short term, the best fix is to add as much as a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil just before an oil change and run it that way for a few days or a longish drive. Don't do this in high ambient temperatures or just before high-rpm driving, since the MMO thins out the oil a lot. At oil change time, add one quarter of a quart to your new oil fill. MMO works to clean out the gum and varnish in the lifter check valves, making them work as the factory intended.


the correct filter does have the backflow valve that rapidly pumped up lifters that when using the fram which lacks that valve would take several blocks of driving to pump up. this is my expereince.


I don't have one to cut open, but I would think that most any filter you could find to screw on there is going to have a anti-drain back valve. The base level Fram filters are cheap and the filter element and the two valve functions may not work all that well though.

I would recommend to the OP that he add some MMO and then run a thin synthetic oil like a 5w40. The MMO will help clean the gum and varnish from the engine and the synthetic will keep more from forming. Vanagon lifters just like thin oil, especially when cold, as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VanagonPDX
Samba Member


Joined: April 25, 2012
Posts: 114
Location: Portland Oregon
VanagonPDX is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:

I would recommend to the OP that he add some MMO and then run a thin synthetic oil like a 5w40. The MMO will help clean the gum and varnish from the engine and the synthetic will keep more from forming. Vanagon lifters just like thin oil, especially when cold, as well.


Worth a shot. I will pick up some MMO tomorrow and dump it in there and see what happens. I live in eastern Oregon, which gets real cold, like -5 at night, in the coming month or so. I ran the 15W40 thinking its high viscosity would keep knocks at bay, not make them them more likely.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
thummmper
Samba Member


Joined: November 25, 2009
Posts: 2015
Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
thummmper is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

crankshaft end thrust excessive
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VanagonPDX
Samba Member


Joined: April 25, 2012
Posts: 114
Location: Portland Oregon
VanagonPDX is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

thummmper wrote:
crankshaft end thrust excessive


...Go on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mightyart
Samba Member


Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
mightyart is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

VanagonPDX wrote:
thummmper wrote:
crankshaft end thrust excessive


...Go on.


How many miles on your engine?
_________________
My Art:
http://www.instagram.com/flynn8552/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
candyman
Samba Trout Slayer


Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 2694
Location: Missoula MT
candyman is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

VanagonPDX wrote:
thummmper wrote:
crankshaft end thrust excessive


...Go on.


You can do a simple quick and dirty check if endplay is excessive by grabbing the pulley and push in and out. You should not be able to detect endplay by this method (even though there is factory spec endplay). If you have excessive endply you would also have low oil pressure issues, esp at hot idle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VanagonPDX
Samba Member


Joined: April 25, 2012
Posts: 114
Location: Portland Oregon
VanagonPDX is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

mightyart wrote:
VanagonPDX wrote:
thummmper wrote:
crankshaft end thrust excessive


...Go on.


How many miles on your engine?


The low low number of 214k Wink

I like to think that being the third owner, and having receipts dating back to purchase, that she was well taken care of. But, that is a fair amount of miles.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mightyart
Samba Member


Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
mightyart is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

You get play in the camshaft from wear, so it could very well be,
crankshaft end thrust excessive
If it is then it's tear down time, or drive it till it dies.
Check the basics first.
_________________
My Art:
http://www.instagram.com/flynn8552/


Last edited by mightyart on Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50255

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: intermittent Engine Knocking Reply with quote

VanagonPDX wrote:
Wildthings wrote:

I would recommend to the OP that he add some MMO and then run a thin synthetic oil like a 5w40. The MMO will help clean the gum and varnish from the engine and the synthetic will keep more from forming. Vanagon lifters just like thin oil, especially when cold, as well.


Worth a shot. I will pick up some MMO tomorrow and dump it in there and see what happens. I live in eastern Oregon, which gets real cold, like -5 at night, in the coming month or so. I ran the 15W40 thinking its high viscosity would keep knocks at bay, not make them them more likely.


Not sure why thin oil seems to work better than thick oil but it seems to both keep the lifters from leaking down and helps them pump up faster. As others said, if you start a cold engine and drive it only a short ways, you will probably have lifter noise the next time you run it, thick oil just seems counter productive as far as the lifters are concern.


Last edited by Wildthings on Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.