Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions

[jimmyhoffa]

Hello, previous buggy guy here! I have what I think is a Chenowth 2lw, serial number 1244, street legal with a clean title. It was given to me by a deceased friend. Out of respect for his old-schoolyness I would like to know how this car is "supposed" to be set up based on brackets and design cues so I can make it what it was supposed to be.

First off, it looks like this: Stock travel link pin front with VW steering box, stock everything. Looks like a very good condition beetle take-off. Very professionally made bumper that exactly matches the profile of the fiberlgass hood.

Good condition frame with no damage and very high weld quality. All the bracing and tabs look stock and scraping through the paint would seem to agree with that assumption. All seems original and the weld style matches throughout.

Decently fitted fiberglass, obviously wiring is totally boned because every buggy ever is wired with the insides of someone else's 20 year old refrigerator. Looks like jackmans wrapped in brand new Mickey's out back, and very crusty Firestones in front that hold air only thanks to the miracles of modern science.

Here's the clue. Tag on dash bar, right (passenger) corner
Says: 1244 (top row) and V2RL9W (bottom row) Weird that it contains the characters "2" "L" and "W" right?
However, it's not the standard Chenowth name plate. Hmm.

Car has a swingaxle in it, running in a stock IRS torsion in very good shape. The angle of the upper shock bungs seems to suggest the car was intended to run as an IRS car. The shock bracing and bungs look 100% original to the chassis. Probably supposed to run gas-a-justs or whatever decent stock replacement shocks were at the time. Is there anything about the upper shock mounts that give "clues" as to the original intent of the setup?

What's that little L-bracket with three holes in the side supposed to be for? It looks really original and there's bolt wear in the holes from something having been on it before. Looks well made and intentional, and there's a matching opposing bracket on the opposite side of the car.

I assume I'm looking at a tabbed-from-the-shop but never utilized oil filter bracket?

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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[Q13931152]

What you have there is a 2RL , not a 2LW. Yes, such a monster does exist ( I think I've seen one on here somewhere in the off road gallery ). If you carefully sand off the rest of the raised area where the serial number is you'll probably find that it is the ID tag. Nice buggy by the way .
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Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

[AZ-BUG]

Nice looking car. I would agree the upper shock bosses appear to be set-up for IRS, otherwise they would be at a 90 degree orientation vs the bottom ones. The L plates with the 3 holes look like they would be used to mount a large air box allowing you to mount 2 air filters on top (you can kind of see what I am talking about in the picture below)

Finally, that tab on the back looks like a flag whip mounting tab, just wasn't drilled out. The filter tabs are normally bigger.

[jimmyhoffa]

Awww you guys are the best.

A little googling seems to indicate that the 2RL chassis cars were quite rare. I don't know about a good rare, but rare. There were hundreds more 4lwd and 2LW chassis built for sure. There is essentially no info on the 2RL.

What is most interesting to me is that the car is actually laid out well. I didn't realize how badly my Chenowth copy frame was until I sat in my real Chenowth last night and jiggled the controls and moved around. You can tell this frame was laid out by someone who raced and knew how things needed to be. It has neat little tricks like a clutch footrest and a nice passenger foot brace and grab handle set, as well as a well-fabricated shifter box. It was probably configured as a play car judging by the conservatively low shock mounts for maybe 7-9" travel shocks, flag mount...

I'll hit the tag with paint stripper tonight to see what I'm working with there!

Good call on the airbox. I was staring at it thinking "THIS CAR IS COMPLETE? WHAT OTHER HUGE ITEM COULD A VW POSSIBLY NEED TO RUN?"

Where I'll go off-roading requires flags on buggies, so that's kinda cool. I'll punch it out and use it! It really looks like the car was tabbed out with it originally from Chenowth.

Keep 'em comin!
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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[cbeck]

Have you made any more progress on the blue one?

[jimmyhoffa]

Yeah man, runs great! Ive been tweaking and messing with stuff, but I legitimately may transfer stuff over to this frame. Its really really nice, and all the stuff I'm proud of and attached to on the blue one is stuff other than the frame.

However there are clues on the outside of the engine thst suggest he spent money on the inside... so I'm excited to see what's saveable!
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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[cbeck]

I saw your last frame on cl, red neck engineering at it's best.

[dustymojave]

Sweet find!

The guys above are right on except for the shock mounts. The lowers and uppers match and are for , as speculated, stock replacement rear shocks for a VW Bus. ie, KYB Gas-A-Just 5530 or Bilstein green or yellow for the same application.

The front bumper fits so well, because it's a real Chenowth bumper. The side nerf bars are also OEM.

For "restoring" the car, the beam could be upgraded to a "Warrior" style, even +6" with 8" towers. NOT coilovers.

The rear could be upgraded to IRS even with 3x3 tubular arms with VW hubs. Some disc brake conversion kits were available, like AMS. But I would keep disc brakes on the down low.

Jackman or Centerline wheels would be appropriate. The existing Jackman stars could be stripped, maybe buffed a little , and powder coated.

All that looks out of place on the car is the huge diamond plate dash box, and the panel around the oil cooler. The upper rear shock mounts do not look like OE Chenowth mounts in style, but DO look (as far as I can tell from the pics) like they were welded by the same guy and would work for an IRS.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[jimmyhoffa]

That is awesome info Richard. I knew you'd have some pretty obscure stuff memorized about how these cars were set up. I'm not looking to "restore" this really, since some of the originality was already butchered to a point. (Dash cutout in hood, non-chenowth tabbing/braces and shock stufff, etc.)

I'm thinking more along the "resto mod" lines where it's not an all-out build, but includes some performance and reliability technology that simply wasn't available when the frame was built. Of course I'll keep the fiberglass, its in better mechanical shape than most glasswork I've seen.

Probably doing boxed IRS rear arms, type 3 rear brakes, +6 warrior beam with stock arms, my super special 091-1 bus box with custom shift linkage, and my Bilstein 7100s all around. I'll save the bumper in a box and make a nice one


Is the "original style" Chenowth shock mount tube the type that goes from the harness bar at about a 50 degree angle back to the cross tube above the transaxle bellhousing? This isn't a Chenowth, but like this but steeper with the triangulating tube?

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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[dustymojave]

My friend's old Chenowth built around 1980 had diagonal bars like those, but steeper, top end at the bottom tangent of the roll cage hoop, bottom end meeting the side rail at the cross member over the bell housing. Otherwise similar to the picture. Like the pic, the shock mount tube was square tube. Lower mounts were down close to the top of the trailing arm. Made of 3/16" plate. Double shear. His looked like it was all welded by the same guy as the rest of the frame. He was 2nd owner, so I can't be sure it was "Factory Chenowth". His had the double filter cross tube air filter assembly like yours has the mounts for and shown on the Chenowth 100 single seater. It was made of 3" round tube with welded-on end plates that extended below the bottom to be mounting tabs to bolt to the tabs welded on the frame.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[jimmyhoffa]

You are indispensable. If someone isn't paying you they should be. I have one last challenge for you, one that evades me that you'll know off the cuff.

What is the point of those air log setups besides water crossings? I can't figure what they do for a single centermount in dry or semi-dry environments. A carb-mounted tall filter over the velocity stacks on an IDF with jet doctors would surely do just as well, no?
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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[jimmyhoffa]

Also you guys nailed it on the double filter log. I dont think these two semicircular reliefs were an accident...

Lastly, changing the shock mounts and making it like you describe, tying into the harness bar will be easy. The harness bar is set dangerously low and will need to be moved up anyway unless I want to get out of the car a lot shorter when I hit something.
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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[AZ-BUG]

[jimmyhoffa]

Ooh that's true, and that would cure one of my worries about the whole layout of an ACVW. There are a few things on a stock beetle geometry driveline that are almost unbelievable at a casual glance.

The fact that the intake (both from a structural and fluid dynamic standpoint) works as well as it does in stock form and with the good IDF centermount is amazing. I know there are problems with both in certain situations, but they are, in general, reliable.

The fact that the engine hangs off of a magnesium bellhousing with two bolts in tension has always fascinated me. The strength and reliability of this arrangement when properly supported is incredible.

The fact that all that together hangs off of two forks as long as they are is also incredibly fascinating to me. Again, this becomes dicey when used harshly, and the bug and buggy guys have appropriate fixes, but millions of beetles have gone about their lives with great success.
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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[Q13931152]

One thing you'll notice when you get that buggy finished is the lack of visibility out the front with the roof on it, especially when you're trying to see up (like up a hill or a dune etc...) .
Nearly every buggy I've been in with that particular roof style had the same problem unless the cage had been raised or the seats were set very low in the frame (or in some cases below the frame (sand only there) . It definitely takes a while to get used to it.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

[dustymojave]

But not having a roof on it makes the occupants subject to sunlight, and increased danger and damage in a rollover. That's a high risk if the car is used for climbing hills steep and tall enough that the roof is an issue. Those who are concerned about obscured vision from a roof might consider a roof panel of Lexan.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[jimmyhoffa]

I think as a compromise (after a few days of staring at the buggy) I'll bend a new windshield hoop out of DOM and make it a few inches taller, maybe 2". This will also make the roof intersect with the windshield hoop at a smaller internal angle, which will increase its resistance to the whole windshield fold-in problem that buggies with the peaked roofs can have if you're talented enough to crash them that hard.

The tube fabrication list isn't too bad, a few long days' work....

1.) Taller windshield hoop: section old out and weld new in, raise roof bars slightly

2.) Cut out low harness bar and low shock mounts, replace with harness bar appropriate for shoulder height

3.) Cut old weird short travel shock mount tubes, put in new "chenowth style" triangulated rear shock gusset tubes from the transaxle cross bar to harness bar more appropriate for my 10" Bilstein 7100s

4.) Plasma cut and carefully flush grind any superfluous mounts for crap I ain't gonna need for my adventures
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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[jimmyhoffa]

So good news... slapped my front end and wheels on there, looking aggressive and wonderful. Highly motivated now for sure.

I definitely am enjoying Richard's advice. That +6 warrior beam looks precisely correct on this car. I don't really know why its called a warrior beam. It should be called a Jim Beam because I built it and I'm Jim. For some reason that phrase... Jim Beam... I feel positive vibes from it... some vague pleasant memories...
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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[AZ-BUG]

Nice beam, Jim. Now you need 3x3's in the back to match

[dustymojave]

You keep making me so jealous, there might be another Jimmy Hoffa whose remains are never found...

Not really. But you're making nice progress.

Just so you know, in the day, Chenowth added small outrigger beam supports to the lower tube. It was at 30-45 degrees from parallel to the bottom frame rail tube. Beam clamp same as on the main rails.

The 1st beams built like that were sold back in the late 1970s. Before complete beams were sold, kits were sold to convert stock beams to what we now call a Warrior Beam. My HiJumper race buggy you see in my avatar got it's stock '65 beam modified in about 1978 or 79. I had built several such beams for customers in the 80s, then for Mirage Racing around 1989 and 90. The term "Warrior Beam" is from a vendor of such beams who showed up on the market around the 1990s or so. Initially they were sold as stock width with 8" towers made of mild steel. Later on, higher grade steel, taller towers and wider widths became available.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.