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Cylinder bore deglaze or honing
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

How many times do you want yo do this job?
I figure once would be more than enough.

Taking Rock Auto parts along with you to get the job done, isn't kosher, or right, and is a low blow.

This guy depends on making a profit & is entitled to that on the parts he sells, & provides.

Buy your own boring bar & hone, and do the entire job yourself, as long as you're supplying the parts.

This I think is correct, proper, & fair as long as you want to provide your own parts and cut his profit margins out of the equation.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

I have always provided the pistons and the machine shop I deal with has always expected me to. It's weird to me that they want to source the pistons.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

I don't think there's a problem with sourcing and using Pistons I bought. Wrong or right (time will tell), I'm the one reassembling this engine. If I'd hired them to the rebuild, that would be a different thing, IMO.

Neil.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:06 am    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

I supply my pistons as well, but they are custom forgings and I am usually going .020 to .040 over size which boring will certainly clean up a used block.

In this case, the question is whether the first oversize .010" will be enough with this particular block. Even though you are going .010 over, you really are only removing .005" material from the wall, which may not be enough in this case.

Letting the machine shop supply the pistons, puts it in their wheelhouse to be sure they are correct. Not sure who is supplying the oversize pistons, but if they accept unused ones back, you have return freight and possibly a restocking fee and the hassle.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

I would for sure put the piston fitment liability in the machine shops lap.
You're supplying parts that you have no idea that they are right for this job.

Besides playing the return game, and paying the freight, you just might be eating a return fee too.

Plus, and not to forget, if something goes wrong, it's going to be on you.

That really isn't a smart decision in this attempt at being frugal.
Not wise at all.

By looking at that one hole, I'd let them put the bottom end. & pistons in , delivering you a completed short block.
Done.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

Right. Ok. I understand re oversize Pistons. I'll be installing my new OEM diameter Pistons and doing the build myself. If build goes south (engine smokes etc), I would look at my work first but would not rule out bores as being the issue. But then even IF theor initial measurements of bores was the issue, I doubt I could collect using via the warrantee they offer. Though they said bores are ok, they had also offered a bore over option and would be quick to mention that.

This is a bit of a gamble but if after a 1000 miles or so, if rings don't seat, the Pistons may be saleable as good low mileage used items and I could save the crank and head. (Head has new valve stem seals installed by shop)

Neil.
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1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

If your happy, I'm happy.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

Devil hates a coward. All you really have to lose is your time at this point. I think what you have planned will work out fine. I'll be more surprised if it does not work out. Best of luck.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

Thanks again guys. We'll see what happens. At the pace I work at the block stands a good chance of rusting up before I get this done. Haha. Kidding.
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1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

Break out the 5 gallon bucket of Cosmoline.
Never rust while it sits.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

Terry Kay wrote:
Break out the 5 gallon bucket of Cosmoline.
Never rust while it sits.


Huh. Thanks.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmoline

Doesn't sound like a similar product at all but my gut said this:

http://www.krownindustrial.com/products.php?product=klfsm

Would do for a week or so. Besides . It was on my shelf, ready and able.

Neil.
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1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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Butcher
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

Terry Kay wrote:

Taking Rock Auto parts along with you to get the job done, isn't kosher, or right, and is a low blow.

This guy depends on making a profit & is entitled to that on the parts he sells, & provides.


I cannot agree more. As an owner of a repair shop, I do not understand why people think it's ok to bring their own parts, but not bring a steak to a restaurant. Is there any industry that it's allowed to bring your own supplies? I do understand specialized/vintage parts and most shops do too. Shops add up all sources of revenue to pay the bills. Taking that away is like asking the average employee to come to work for free. But, it always boils down to me that says yes/no.

Since the machinist said that he could not locate 020 oversized pistons. That leaves the door open to bring your own part, in my book. My machine shop does allow me to bring my own parts, but I asked before I did.

I have my sources to get parts, but most of them do not sell to the public. Rock Auto seems to have many parts, but I'm not so certain the suppliers are a good deal or not. That's where the buyer needs to do their homework to determine what they're getting.
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Gruppe B
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

I don't understand the complaint about bringing parts.

You have an hourly shop rate. I am hiring you to act as an installer and will use your shop rate.

I do not expect parts warranty. I do not need you to troubleshoot.

I am hiring you to install a part.

If you don't want to act as an installer, fine, I will go somewhere else. Why complain?
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

So, you are sucking a portion of the shops profit margin out of the job.

Does the sign above his door say " installation shop", or "repair shop" ?

You take your own exhaust parts to midas?
take your own tires to Discount tire?

Tell the guy that's installing your Rock Auto parts, to send you his rent bill, his employee's wages, electric, gas, & other overhead bills.

You'll take care of all of that.

I gotta say this ;

You're outa your mind.

Do the work yourself, you won't embarrass anybody as they show you the "out" door.
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atomatom
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

hi neil. i hear you on the ferry, although our ferry ride is only half the cost, but it is still two trips for anything that isn't done on the same day, never mind the time.

i used http://alecsautomotive.com/ but they didn't do anything too significant for me, just measured/polished crank, tested valves, cleaned the case and did a quick dingleberry hone. i posted the cost/etc in my rebuild thread, i think it was a few hundred bucks.

maybe a better strategy to find a machine shop would be calling around to some of the people in town that do rebuilds and ask them who they use. i can't remember exactly, but i think i found alec's by google then searched around for negative reviews. a bit like asking people on the internet to inspect your engine from your photos. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

I ask the shop if they are interested in installing said part if supplied.

None of the shops have any issue with this and the shop rate varies between $90-120 hr which covers paying for the mech and the overhead + profits.

I am hiring for the expertise of the installer. No big deal

Who buys tires from the tire rack? Do you install them yourself or are you eating the lunch of some shop somewhere paying them to install?
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

Terry Kay wrote:
So, you are sucking a portion of the shops profit margin out of the job.

Does the sign above his door say " installation shop", or "repair shop" ?

You take your own exhaust parts to midas?
take your own tires to Discount tire?

Tell the guy that's installing your Rock Auto parts, to send you his rent bill, his employee's wages, electric, gas, & other overhead bills.

You'll take care of all of that.

I gotta say this ;

You're outa your mind.

Do the work yourself, you won't embarrass anybody as they show you the "out" door.


I gotta say this ;

You're outa your mind TK.

Just step away from the keyboard and you won't embarrass yourself.

A shop supplying parts is a convenience to the customer, not the way a repair shop 'makes their profit.' The markup on parts is to cover the additional warranty work required if the supplied part fails. If the customer supplies the part, there is no warranty and no risk on the part of the shop. I can't see any reason for a shop to complain about that unless their goal is to rape the customer with excessively high parts costs. When installing a customer supplied part, they get the profit of the labor and no risk of a callback for warranty work if the part fails. That's a win for the shop over the measly 'profit' on a shop supplied part.

Take this simple scenario.... Shop supplies rear crankshaft seal at $15. If it doesn't leak, they make $5 on the seal. If it leaks they spend an additional 6 hours of shop time to replace the seal. If the customer supplies the seal, they 'lose' $5 and eliminate the risk of losing $500 in labor if the seal leaks...

Terry Kay wrote:
You're outa your mind.


PS... Is that really you TK?? I think that's the first time I have ever seen you correctly use 'you're' and 'your'.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

If you are a shop that lets customers provide their own parts, good luck convincing them that the part was at fault, if something does go wrong!
People do not give the benefit of the doubt these days, and are very quick to start pointing fingers, and voicing their distaste on the old inter-web. Why even open that can of worms?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

atomatom wrote:
hi neil. i hear you on the ferry, although our ferry ride is only half the cost, but it is still two trips for anything that isn't done on the same day, never mind the time.

i used http://alecsautomotive.com/ but they didn't do anything too significant for me, just measured/polished crank, tested valves, cleaned the case and did a quick dingleberry hone. i posted the cost/etc in my rebuild thread, i think it was a few hundred bucks.

maybe a better strategy to find a machine shop would be calling around to some of the people in town that do rebuilds and ask them who they use. i can't remember exactly, but i think i found alec's by google then searched around for negative reviews. a bit like asking people on the internet to inspect your engine from your photos. Smile


Thanks atomatom.

I trusted a friend of a friend for referral to this machine shop. The friend that actually uses the shop has built many engines and is a long time gear head.

I will check your build thread again. Smile

As to the discussion of using ones own parts, from the outset, the shop knew I'd be building this engine. They offered up Pistons but no other parts. Regardless, any number of parts I install could cause an engine failure or cause a part(s) to wear prematurely. Not a great example, but if I tensioned the timing belt way too much, in theory, this might cause premature wear at the intermediate shaft bearings especially the outboard bearing at pulley end of engine. I certainly wouldn't expect any warrantee offered by the machine shop to apply to the intermediate shaft bearings they installed. There was a shop in north Vancouver that used to allow me to supply the parts but understandably, they wouldn't warrantee their work in that case. Most of the time, I trust a given repair shop to source decent quality parts.

The Internet has been a game changer for many people. It certainly had a negative effect on my business.

Neil.
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1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Cylinder bore deglaze or honing Reply with quote

To what?

I should take my own belt & tensioners for a job that should cost about $600.00 plus?

It's a sidewinder , I am not in the mood for this crummy job.

You have truely flipped.
(Not you Neil )

There are certain jobs the way I look at it, it's easier to job an engine out, & just do the R&R work.
I can get more done doung other stuff while the machine shop is rebuilding the engine.

Money & time smarter.
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