356 brakes install on VW beetle

[Telephunken]

Ive looked at other posts on this topic but haven't the straight answers im looking for; Need someone KNOWLEDGABLE.
Question 1: is using 356 B brakes a straight bolt on for an early 50's VW? I have a link pin front end and stock crash box tranny. Ive read that the front VW spindles are smaller than the B brake drums need so have to use different bearings? I've also been told that the rear bearing "holder" or cover needs to be used from the Porsche not the VW because the VW one is too deep and allows for slop in the bearing.
I would just like the 100% facts. I have backing plates, drums and all hardware.
Question 2: is this same for either A or B style brakes then? What part does the "oil slinger" play in this adaptation on the A brakes?
I have access to either type so just want to weight the work involved with using either type.
Question 3: Anyone recommend someone who can "turn" the drums? Im located near Sacramento, CA. I dont know if I trust the local "les Schwab" type places to touch them. the "B" style drums I would like to use appear to have sufficient liner left, came from a driving car.
Thanks for input all.

[tobiasax]

I have installed B-brakes on a 56 type 1 (1991) and A-brakes on a 58 Ghia (ongoing). Here is my short-list:

- Use VW pre-65 front bearings
- Use a washer inside rear axle nut
- Find a way to get more "free length" of the e-brake cable (if you're lucky you can adjust it, but in my recent case it wasn't possible)
- I haven't seen any problems in using VW rear bearing holder.
- Oilslinger is integrated in the rear drums on Porsche. Pre-January-1958 drums have a separate piece bolted in the drum. Later ones have the function integrated in the drum with no extra parts.
- There is no difference in effort using A or B drums
- If you have the drums turned you should have the linings "radiused" at the same time to make them fit to the new diameter, otherwise you lose a lot of stopping power.
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[tobiasax]

Regarding the bearing holders:

As I wanted to make sure I haven't done anything wrong I did pull one rear drum yesterday evening.

The Porsche backing plate have the same thickness as the VW so the claim that the bearing will not seat properly is simply not true.

However, if you have late style axles with the seal pressed in from behind in the bearing holder you need to have a small spacer as the mating surface of the Porsche drum is much bigger than the VW. I had so on my 1956 beetle so I know it works fine.
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[Jacks]

[tobiasax]

[Jacks]

.The problem with using a standard flat washer, beyond potential hardness issues, is that the I.D. has to be big enough to fit over the splines of the axle, so that the points of the hex are nearly all that is in contact with the washer. Not enough, IMHO. The I.D. of the Porsche washer, with the relief on the back side, is the size of the threaded area of the axle. The difference in I.D. is probably around 6 or 7mm! It's not really fair to compare VW's weak cast iron drums to 356 drums with hard steel inserts for the splines on their aluminum drums. VW stripped splines are common place, and drums usually can be done without axle replacement. Damaged splines are rare on 356, but when they occur, axle replacement is almost always needed. That means that the differential will have to be disassembled, just like split case VW transmissions.
Some discussion, with photos are here:
http://forum.porsche356registry.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3679
In regard to your washer method, a good hardness test would be to give it a good whack with a hammer while the washer is in a vice. If it bends, it's soft. If you chose to use your washer, I would recommend using a later VW nut with the flange. Another point of interest is that the flanged 356 nut has a raised section on the drum seating area. This was done to capture only the hard steel insert. I suppose that the factory guys did not want contact with the aluminum, which expands at a greater rate during use, potentially loosening the nut, due to thread stretch. They did not make changes for no reason. Interesting to note, the 356 washers usually cracked in a circle, near the transition. BTW, 356 had to harness 2 or 3 times the power of VW of the era.
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Jack Staggs
Actual name

[tobiasax]

The surface area is sufficient. The axial load is the same on VW and Porsche. It's just steel, no rocket science.
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[Jacks]

If you think so, OK, but I can't tell folks when they have problems in that area that it is in their imagination. I have seen it many times over the decades. Just finished up a '57 356 Rudge wheel car in the shop that had some of the exact problems that I mentioned. Repair bill was over $4000.
BTW, those early oil slingers that bolt to the drum are a no go. The metal is far too soft for the torque. If you want to use them, trim the I.D large enough to fit over the seal spacer. To make up the difference in depth, use a OG stock gland nut wavey washer, if needed, plenty hard. Be sure the slinger ID clears the washer on drum installation.
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Jack Staggs
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[56samba]

Here's what I came up with to mount pre 58 356A brakes on a 1954 VW:

- you need a special washer indeed, I had one machined from a good chrome steel with a beveled area to accept the spline, total depth was about 5mm, can share the drawing. It allow you to use the normal VW nut again.
- enlarge the e brake cables with threaded rods and a long nut (25 mm M6) to connect them. Had to cut off about 20 mm of the original thread, this is required to have enough length for proper e brake adjusting. The long nut should have a max. outer diameter of 8.5 mm. Not sure about the position of the brake cylinders on rear Porsche axles, it should be on the bottom on your VW.
- original front soft brake lines were about 30 mm to long, the ones for later bugs and 55-67 busses work well.
- rear hard brake lines should be about 50 mm longer than original length
- using modern roller/barrel bearings for VWs will work on your Porsche brake drums too

[Loren]

Just wanted to post my experience with putting Porsche 356b brakes on my 58 Ghia with a split case transmission. Everything on the chassis is stock.

First, I sent the drums and brake shoes to Martin at the Machine Shop in Colorado Springs, CO. I thought the drums might need to be relined, but Martin called and said they were within spec and only needed to be turned. He cleaned all the drums and brake shoes, installed new pads and arched them to the drums. I also had him install VW bearings (he had the bearings in stock and knew exactly what to do) on the front drums and check the rear drum spines to make sure they were solid.

Martin was extremely fast and professional and great to deal with. It took less than two weeks to ship him the drums and get them back! I highly recommend his work.

With the VW bearings installed the front drums went on with no modifications using stock VW spindles. I used stock VW soft lines too.

The rear drums bolted right on too, with no modifications (the bearing caps fit just fine), though I did use Porsche 356 castle nuts for the rear drums.

The only issue I had was e-brake cables. With new shoes the stock cables were a bit too short. Here is a breakdown of type one cable sizes that are close and potential issues:

58-64 (113609721F) 69" - these were a tad too short

65-67 (113609721L) 70.4" - these work, but I had little to no future adjustment

68 only (113609721M) 70.2" - these work with a little extra future adjustment

73-79 (133609721) 69.3" - these might just work once my shoes break in

[[email protected]]

Your stock e brake cables should be fine just add a shortening kit ive seen folks fix that problem with them ...👇👇

https://aapistons.com/products/cable-shortening-kit-emergency-brake-only

[Jacks]

Good point on the axle castle nuts. 356 rear drums have a shorter snout than VW. Special 356 nut spacer washers must be used in combination with VW nuts, or use 356 nuts with the built on flange. VW flange nuts are NOT the same
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Jack Staggs
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[Loren]

Unfortunately, my original cables were too short to begin with, so a shortening kit wouldn't have worked. The shortening kit looks great for when I replace the cables I have, then I can buy longer cables and cut them to the right length. Thanks for the link.

[oldslow]

You can use the shortening kit to make longer cables, if you buy two sets of cables and cut them to get two longer pieces.
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- better to drive a slow car fast than fast car slow -

[Big_E_Deluxe]

Nice clean install! I concur, Martin is great to deal with and does quality work. No issues on the work he did on my drums.
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Erik

1958 VW Beetle - "Max": https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
1959 VW Bus - "Hans" - Double Door Panel (sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746927
2014 Porsche 991.1 Carrera S