type 4 performance build

[gforcepdx]

i am researching a 2332 build for my 60 ragtop and keep bumping into mentions of type 4 builds being so robust but also being more expensive. i'm trying to wrap my head around what "expensive" actually means.

in contemplating my own build based on a type 1 engine, i'm budgeting things like a $400 set of rods, ported stage two heads ($1,400?) and at least a set of 48 idf's $1,000 or perhaps a megasquirt system ($1,500?) Is that expensive? i have no idea... seems like the price of admission to me.

so are type 4 motors more expensive to build than that? most people will tell you the engine/trans part of a build will set you back $7k. but there are people building motors spending quite a bit less. is a type 4 build more expensive to those people...? or to me?

anyway the reason i'm looking into it is the idea of longevity. i'd love to have a build go 100k. not sure how realistic that is. but i get the feeling building a type 1 motor is closer to the 50k mark. it's about the bearings? soft thin beetle cases can't take the abuse? that's the ways it's been put to me. that the type 4 cases are built for all the extra weight of a fully loaded van going up pikes peak etc... and i like the sound of that. but then i read that your options are limited and aftermarket parts harder to find. because you're leaving the herd at that point. three guys in a hundred build type 3 so the market tends to the other 97.

lastly the hp numbers i've seen look to be on the low side. guys posting 130 etc... i came to the table wanting a build capable of producing 160 to 200 hp. but capable doesn't mean i'd see that often. i've been told it's the higher rpms killing longevity. i plan to build a motor capable of 8,000 rpms, though i'd largely be driving at half that most of the time.

is a type 4 going to do that for me. or would pushing that hard take me back down to 50k rebuild territory again.

i found this yesterday... 2800 type 4 injection motor. pretty sweet...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-UZSa4M-iuM
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yes... I'm the one who destroyed this fine, vintage, automoble...
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yes... I'm the one who destroyed this fine, vintage, automoble...

[raygreenwood]

I delayed answering this because its time consuming and others will eventually chine in....and it becomes a free for all.

The type 4 engine....was the last major aircooled engine design of VW. Not the last variation.....as there were modifications of it for the Vanagon ...but basically late bus, Porsche 912 and Vanagon are all basically type 4 engines with some upgrades/changes to the main case casting and how the engines were assembled.

So...VW incorporated quite a lot of improvements into it. Right off the bat......a tougher case with full flow oiling...no more cracking behind #3, knly a fraction of issues with high mileage crank whip ovaling out the case, slightly better oil pressure control, windage trays for slosh issues in the first applications of it (411, 412 and some 914), more fins for cooling on the heads, removeable lifters without splitting the case, a more reliable engine cooling system....which while having a little lower cfm output than the type 1 engine fan.....had better control.

The problem with regard to parts....is these engines came late to this country.....1971 through 1974 in 411, 412 and 914.
Not that many made in that period and the cars they were in were expensive and had fairly dedicated fuel injection set ups. Carbed versions were not imported....and would not fit in a bug, ghia or thing without fabricating both a cooling system and going to twin carbs. So....since they were few...and did not fit in bugs....they were largely ignored. Being that parts were expensive then.....and working in them was a little different.....most mechanics of the early era....hated them simply because they did not respond as readily to "hackery"...shortcuts or cheapness.
Only in 1974.....did they put it in a bus...first with twin carbs....then immediatley upgraded to a 1.8L then the 2.0. The 1.8 had already been in the 412 and 914.

Again....these engines with their cooling system were a little more visually complex, heavier...and did not fit in a beetle without mods.....and they were largely detuned with a torque band set up for a bus. So with no real market....no wide range of aftetmarket parts has really been made over the decades.

Cut to 15 years ago or so with the work of Jake Raby and others pointing out what a robust and improved design it was....and making some aftermarket cooling for upright conversion...and there was a wave of people putting these into type 1 based cars.

Bear in mind that the type 4 engine...stock....with good care....is commonly a 100,000 to 150,000 mile engine...with the average type one engine being about a 75,000 mile engine before at least a valve job is needed if not more. The case material and design, oil filter and head fin system alone represents most of this improvement.

But.....there is not a huge pool of aftermarket parts choices. And since your initial parts tend to be higher cost because there are fewer engines....then add in an upright cooling system and twin carbs with manifolds and linkage....unless you want to keep the original fuel injection manifolds (which are actually pretty good....but will limit your displacement) and use with stock or aftermarket injection .....and you are already just a little more expensive than a type 1. Not bad...yet..but certainly close to 50% higher for a stock build.

Another point to keep in mind at this point.....is the stock exhaust....was poorly designed in performance terms, ran hot and were barely adequate for stock displacment.

Ok....so then look at the type of person/application wanting an engine that is tougher than a type 1....and willing to spend a bit more money.....and the only people that fit that profile...want nothing even close to stock.

So.....the market that exists..or ever existed for aftermatket parts....outside of stock bus parts and some 411, 412 and 914.....has all been aimed at full cusyom, larger engines and sports cars.....Jake Raby, European Motorworks, Fat Performance.....a few others. What they make is nowhere near stock...so fewer buyers.....and higher cost.

Add to that now.....the only better than stock exhaust systems that exist....are all custom.
And.....since now even a mild build has expensive parts you do not want to destroy......building even a bone stock type 4.....is closer to blueprinting than the average built on a workbench type 1 build.
There are some important assembly differences.....and ignoring them can lead to an early engine death. Details like rod ratio, valvetrain, camshaft....are critical ro the type 4 engine survival if you want it to live the high miles that the stock engines did...or better.

So.....you are looking at a 2.3 liter? You are probably going to need a custom crank welded and ground...unless you can make that work with a stock 71mm crank from a 2.0L....which is not as strong. An aftermarket cooling system like a DTM.....unless you have room to stay with the stock system which works well. The basic needing lots more parts and your fabbing is $900. The full blown bolt up kit is about $2100

Custom cylinders probably...because going that big will leave you with few choices of quality parts....so you end up at European Motorworks or The Type 4 store for "Nickies" with custom pistons. Expect $1000+ for EM and about $3000 for nickies.
You need a real cam with all the fixings.....solid spacers, Porsche swivel feet, new pushrods and lifters, springs, retainers....the best in the business will set you back $1100 for the whole kit.

A custom exhaust....and a couple exist....A1 and EM....expect $1500+.

Gaskets, alternator, machine work......another $500 or so. Your injection...yep as you note...with manifolds and TBs...maybe $1500 finished with a better than stock ignition.

And the heads...which are critical. Few choices here. Rebuilt/massaged ones from stock....a good rebuild will set you back maybe $1000 for the pair with excellent parts. Or new AMC castings...which are bone stone....then work on those.....still about $1500 by the time you get what you want. Or reproduction/custom on new AMC castings....but bad ass...from HAM inc....about $2100 for the pair.

Right there...i have a little under $11,000....for an engine like you want with a type 4....with you doing all the work.....but it will be a bulletproof driving at 85mph all day every day engine....or a good track car.

You can build a slightly larger than stock...but much better than stock...probably 150 hp...2056...will all of largely the same parts except for some of the more expensive custom pieces like crank and nickies cylinders......for about half that. A great bulletproof better than factory stock build....if you can find the quality original parts you need.....for between $4000 to $5000.

I will have about 5k in my modified 1.7l with modified faftory D-jet, better cam and valvetrain.....pushing to just below 100hp....up from the facyory 82hp....and it will run to 150k.

Yes....its the cost of admission because of supply and demand. Most...but not all... of the type 1 guys refuse to use type 4 and say its too expensive....becaue they are effectively cheap. They dont really care to spend the extra $$$$ for the longevity they don't care about. Mkst would rather spend $3k for a higher than stock output, simple to slap togetuer...simple to get parts anywhere for....engine.....and just rebuild it again at 50k miles if that's what it requires.
The other side of that coin are the type 1 builders who want the longevity...and will even pop for a modern aluminum type 1 case and all custom parts....and in the longrun spend ahout as much as you will...simply because there are a wider range of quality type 1 racing parts to choose from. Simpler.
Ray

[gforcepdx]

well thank you so much. very informative. i would say that there is the potential for an effective sticky here on the variant uses of the type 4 engine platform. that's the sort of thing i looked for prior to posting.
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yes... I'm the one who destroyed this fine, vintage, automoble...

[dawie]

There is a misconception about the abilities of the stock type 4's cooling system. It pumps a lot more air than the type 1 setup. A few facts from VW, as published in various literature:

Type 1 doghouse cooling system: 600 Litre per second at 4000 engine rpms. (Earlier types did less).
Type 4 flat fan setup: 800 Litre per second at 4600 rpms, and 710 litre per second at only 3600 rpms.

The problem arises when abused. Having the cold cooling-air intake right next to the used hot air outlet, engine compartment sealing/ducting becomes ultra-critical, for obvious reasons.

[gforcepdx]

so, if i was looking for a 2.0 donor, what would be a good price? i'm seeing complete motors on ebay for 2k+
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yes... I'm the one who destroyed this fine, vintage, automoble...

[raygreenwood]

[gforcepdx]

well based on what i've read i think i'll proceed with the 2332 for several reasons. i've got more than one car and this sounds like something you really, really need to map out before pulling the trigger on anything. i think i'm in love with the idea of a 2.0 or 2.2 build to place in a 56 bathtub convertible replica down the road.
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yes... I'm the one who destroyed this fine, vintage, automoble...

[raygreenwood]

[gforcepdx]

yea. i've been to that site but haven't dug deeply yet. but i'll do that. it actually pops up in google searches on the subject so, yea. thanks
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yes... I'm the one who destroyed this fine, vintage, automoble...

[caseyd45]

I just ran across your feed here. I'm building a 2374 type 4 to go in a Karmann Ghia (96mm pistons / 82mm crank), big valve heads, dual webers, (I haven't made up my mind on the camshaft yet),etc.
All the previous responses are good. I would just ad that you can save some money by shopping around a little (don't buy cheap stuff though) and there are alternatives to the DTM and Porsche type cooling systems. I purchased the "Joe Calli" conversion bible (about $20.00) and it has step by step instructions on building your own upright conversion but you need to be a pretty good fabricator. All that out of the way Jake Raby is the guru and he has done a lot of work with the type 4 (bug me video on type 4). I don't think he is on the forums much anymore though if at all. I have used european motorworks for a lot of parts. For a starting point I found my core engine on the samba for a good price and I've picked up parts here and there.

[gforcepdx]

would you agree the cost is twice that of a type 1? i've pushed a type 4 build back for more research. from the reading i've done so far it sounds like i can expect no more than 130 hp from a type 4 without hurting longevity.
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yes... I'm the one who destroyed this fine, vintage, automoble...

[raygreenwood]

[gforcepdx]

[raygreenwood]

[busnutbob]

I think many bus owners will agree that buses are not engine killers. I've run 1600 based dual carb motors in split buses for years with no issues. Keep it cool, don't abuse it and recognize that its a bus and not a bug.

My '67 double cab has enjoyed the past 20 years with a 2.0 liter type IV engine with a Joe Cali type upright fan conversion using the type IV oil cooler in an extended dog house. The truck has a 901 Porsche five speed and I can cruise all day long at 80 mph. Loaded with two people, dog and luggage for several weeks, the truck has made many long distance trips including two from Buffalo to central Florida and back. Top speed is 100 mph.

[raygreenwood]

[busnutbob]

LOL!

I guess Volkswagen should have consulted with you before selling millions of buses - they could have saved so many engines.

[raygreenwood]

[busnutbob]

Now I DO understand, you must be living on an undiscovered planet.

[VWmac58]