| Author |
Message |
Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
|
 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:44 am Post subject: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
 |
|
Found an intresting article in the german magazine AMS from the wery early '70s. As we all know this invention never reached the production... 
The magazine text says (with all reservations for my translation):
Efforts for drivability are made in Wolfsburg:
The VW-werk has let an intresting and upgraded VW411 out of their garage. Surprisingly this car has an electronic and automatic steer function which keeps the car on course in heavy side wind or at enforced wawy manouvers whether the driver is skilled or not. Driving the car in 148km/h through an artificiall side wind of 80 km/h did not cause any noticabele side drift at all.
This automated function has been named ”stummer copilot” (muted copilot) and has a side force sensor in the front of the car. A ghost hand seemes to steer the car without rotating the steering wheel but the driver can take over the steering at any situation. Also an electronic anti lock braking system is under developement at VW.
Image text:
A computer senses the actual side wind impact from sensors and controls a servo motor which makes steering corrections without notice of the driver.
Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver 
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold
Last edited by Lars S on Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:14 am Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
| Lars S wrote: |
Found an intresting article in the german magazine AMS from the wery early '70s. As we all know this invention never reached the production...
The magazine text says (with all reservations for my translation):
Efforts for drivability are made in Wolfsburg:
The VW-werk has let an intresting and upgraded VW411 out of their garage. Surprisingly this car has an electronic and automatic steer function which keeps the car on course in heavy side wind or at enforced wawy manouvers wheather the driver is skilled or not. Driving the car in 148km/h through an artificiall side wind of 80 km/h did not cause any noticabele side drift at all.
This automated function has been named ”stummer copilot” (muted copilot) and has a side force sensor in the front of the car. A ghost hand seemes to steer the car without rotating the steering wheel but the driver can take over the steering at any situation. Also an electronic anti lock braking system is under developement at VW.
Image text:
A computer senses the actual side wind impact from sensors and controls a servo motor which makes steering corrections without notice of the driver.
Lars S |
Fantastic information!
And....most of the current VW's ...like my 2012 Golf ...actually have this function in their electric power steering.
Check it out here! http://en.volkswagen.com/en/innovation-and-technol...nkung.html
Nice to know my type 4 was the car it was being experimented on with. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34002
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
I don't think I have the old issue, but back in the mid'70s Motor Trend covered VW safety cars and testing. It was the era before air bags, and VW was looking at many other safety features. Auto-tensioning belts, drop-down netting, and other alternatives were discussed. They also described this system, and maybe even used that same graphic. Fascinating article, and a companion to the VWESV article here on the Samba.
Also, the thinking at the time was that the Type 4 was the only model with a real chance at meeting the expected frontal crash test contemplated by the US government back then... un-belted, airbag-less crash into a fixed barrier at 50mph without fatality. That is one reason for the long nose with at least a meter of crush zone available. They showed a Bug with a similar nose extension and it was awful!
It is hard to describe the panic in the auto industry over these proposed regulations, combined with the gas crunch, and in the case of VW, the revaluation of the Deutschmark. The NSU/VW K-70 was maybe the only other chassis with a chance. For a while it was looking like VW's entire line would be K70 and 411!
Then the watercooleds came, and the regulations were relaxed somewhat. But those were scary years for VW before then!
Last edited by KTPhil on Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:56 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
| I don't think I have the old issue, but back in the mid'70s Motor Trend covered VFW safety cars and testing. IT was the era before air bags, and VW was looking at many other safety features. Auto-tensioning belts, drop-down netting, and other alternatives were discussed. They also described this system, and maybe even used that same graphic. Fascinating article, and a companion to the VWESV article her eon the Samba. |
Yes a lot was going on at that time. In the article of the steering function they also mention rotational discs to keep head and backlights dry and also an air spoiler mounted above the rear window on the Variant to force the air to keep the window clean.
Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34002
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
| Lars S wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
| I don't think I have the old issue, but back in the mid'70s Motor Trend covered VFW safety cars and testing. IT was the era before air bags, and VW was looking at many other safety features. Auto-tensioning belts, drop-down netting, and other alternatives were discussed. They also described this system, and maybe even used that same graphic. Fascinating article, and a companion to the VWESV article her eon the Samba. |
Yes a lot was going on at that time. In the article of the steering function they also mention rotational discs to keep head and backlights dry and also an air spoiler mounted above the rear window on the Variant to force the air to keep the window clean.
Lars S |
In addition to VW, Mercedes-Benz was heavily into that sort of "active safety" with the ribs on the rockers and taillight lenses to keep them clean. Other features included a shift lever larger than the human eye socket, constant flow-through ventilation, knee-bars, positive door latches, good 360 degree visibility, better headlights, etc.
One of the more subtle was that, as a result of one driver accidentally turning off his headlamps when he meant to turn on the nearby wiper switch (and crashed as a result), MB redesigned the dash switches to always have them on opposite sides of the steering wheel, so a driver's hands "learned" not to mix them up.
To this day they have some of these features. On the highway with trucks, I often turn the climate system to "recirculate" to avoid the diesel stench, but after about 15-20 minutes it turns itself back to the "fresh air" setting. I am sure some MB safety engineer pointed out that recirculating air for too long can cause drowsiness, and programmed it to force fresh air inside after a time.
Do you have a link to the article? Google translate might give us a decent approximation of the English text. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
The 411 and 412 are not just crush surviveable because of the long nose. They actually have an engineered crumple zone built in front and rear. One of the first of any production car to do so.
The flow through ventilation feature is also constant and is an active feature. This is why all 411 and 412 have that ground glass "notch" in the front door drivers and passnger seats.
It works with the rear quarter window louvers on the sedans an e the rear hatch gills on the wagons. These are not just decorative. Underneath the small rear louvers are ports that ho to the vented rear valance at the bottom of the back glass.
When you crack your front door windows to just expose the 1" or so of the notch in the glass.......air enters the car and floww along the headliner ....across the back glass and out the side louvers. Its flow through and draft free.
Also all four door cars rear doors came with child safety locks.....look for the lever/switch inside the rear door jamb. This is also why the windows only roll down a little less than halfway on the rear doors.
Lots of little safety details in these cars. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:38 am Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
Do you have a link to the article? Google translate might give us a decent approximation of the English text. |
Sorry I just have fractions of the article and I have already translated and published the text there is...
One more photo however showing what they call "Head light flusher"...is this why the '70 411 has flat glass on their lenses...?
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:00 am Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
To this day they have some of these features. On the highway with trucks, I often turn the climate system to "recirculate" to avoid the diesel stench, but after about 15-20 minutes it turns itself back to the "fresh air" setting. I am sure some MB safety engineer pointed out that recirculating air for too long can cause drowsiness, and programmed it to force fresh air inside after a time.
|
Yes lots (most) of todays developement is thanks to software and programming...but they do not always get it right; on some cars you should not fill up gas with the engine running or the tank gauge will go mad - it is not "logic" that the tank level should go UP when the engine is running.
Another feature (Audi?) is that you must not be to quick to fill up engine oil if a low oil warning has come on, the hood must be open more than 30sec for the warning to go off - if you are quicker it will stay on even if the oil level is OK.
But of course most software functions has helped a lot such as ESP and other...but recently it did not help VW to make their engines super clean... 
Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34002
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:31 am Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
| raygreenwood wrote: |
The flow through ventilation feature is also constant and is an active feature. This is why all 411 and 412 have that ground glass "notch" in the front door drivers and passnger seats.
It works with the rear quarter window louvers on the sedans an e the rear hatch gills on the wagons. These are not just decorative. Underneath the small rear louvers are ports that ho to the vented rear valance at the bottom of the back glass.
When you crack your front door windows to just expose the 1" or so of the notch in the glass.......air enters the car and floww along the headliner ....across the back glass and out the side louvers. Its flow through and draft free. |
Early Beetles had this feature, too. Before they added vent wings, the door glass has the little notch for the same reason (although they didn't have as good an air exit as the late Type 3/4 cars).
Late Type 3s had a crumple zone in the front, including the rather rust-prone boxes inboard of the front fenders. None in the rear, though... that was a weak link in the Squareback body, and a minor rear-ender sometimes really bent the C-pillars. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:51 am Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
The flow through ventilation feature is also constant and is an active feature. This is why all 411 and 412 have that ground glass "notch" in the front door drivers and passnger seats.
It works with the rear quarter window louvers on the sedans an e the rear hatch gills on the wagons. These are not just decorative. Underneath the small rear louvers are ports that ho to the vented rear valance at the bottom of the back glass.
When you crack your front door windows to just expose the 1" or so of the notch in the glass.......air enters the car and floww along the headliner ....across the back glass and out the side louvers. Its flow through and draft free. |
Early Beetles had this feature, too. Before they added vent wings, the door glass has the little notch for the same reason (although they didn't have as good an air exit as the late Type 3/4 cars).
Late Type 3s had a crumple zone in the front, including the rather rust-prone boxes inboard of the front fenders. None in the rear, though... that was a weak link in the Squareback body, and a minor rear-ender sometimes really bent the C-pillars. |
Yes....you are spot on....the crumple zones are peculiar and hard to recognize for ...until someone with body work experience points it out to you.
They are usually two parts...a strengthening weld on box or cavity section to slow the bending of one area...complimented by a weak area where you actually want it to bend to absorb energy.
Most sheet metal structures of course serves numerous functions at one time.
This is my passenger side front end. The box like structure at the top of the fender is a strengthening box. The holes in it that were not being used for vent hose pass through were factory taped over and then undercoated from the factory. It has a single drain built into it.
This is a strengthening box.
The other yellow arrow pointing to the strut tower strengthening rib is part of the way this makes a box structure. The forward edge of the fuel tank sits right at the vertical dotted line and is angled to ride upward.
A closer look....so the box at the top of the fender and rearward seen in the first picture keeps the top of the chassis strong.... and the welded on box that is behind the bolt holes for the idler arm...double as a strengthener to keep that area strong...everything forward of the forward vertical rib for the strut tower...is a weak spot designed to fold or mostly roll under....while the box structures keep the cavity around the fuel tank intact. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34002
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
| Lars S wrote: |
Found an intresting article in the german magazine AMS from the wery early '70s. As we all know this invention never reached the production...
The magazine text says (with all reservations for my translation):
Efforts for drivability are made in Wolfsburg:
The VW-werk has let an intresting and upgraded VW411 out of their garage. Surprisingly this car has an electronic and automatic steer function which keeps the car on course in heavy side wind or at enforced wawy manouvers whether the driver is skilled or not. Driving the car in 148km/h through an artificiall side wind of 80 km/h did not cause any noticabele side drift at all.
This automated function has been named ”stummer copilot” (muted copilot) and has a side force sensor in the front of the car. A ghost hand seemes to steer the car without rotating the steering wheel but the driver can take over the steering at any situation. Also an electronic anti lock braking system is under developement at VW.
Image text:
A computer senses the actual side wind impact from sensors and controls a servo motor which makes steering corrections without notice of the driver.
Lars S |
I found a xerox of the November 1971 Motor Trend article about this, written by their European correspondent Edouard Seidler. The illustration is identical except for language:
The article text read:
| Quote: |
The "silent copilot" is an electronic device which influences and corrects the car's steering whenever the driver himself fails to do so in some extreme cases: sudden and brutal crosswinds, potholes in the road, etc.. Whenever the car is not following the course indicated by the position of the steering wheel, an accelerometer placed in the nose of the car senses it. Signals are sent through a computer to a servo-motor which moves a pivot in the steering linkage and makes the needed correction automatically.
The driver's freedom remains total at all times: automatic steering correction is made only when the driver himself fails to react in time. Should the driver be surprised by a sudden crosswind or swerve, the regulating copilot will take action immediately.
I tried two VW 411s on Wolfsburg's test track, one equipped with a "silent copilot," the other without it, driving at 90 mph past a wind machine which was blowing a 50 mph side gale across the track. The normal car was blown off its course approximately three to four yards before I could start correcting my route. With the "silent copilot" the 411 moved off its normal route by less than a yard before the electronic regulator made an automatic correction.
The "silent copilot" device might well be the first step toward fully automatic driving--when the driver himself will be no more than an ordinary passenger of an electronically-operated vehicle, going its way alone after the course program is set on a computer! |
Damn, that last paragraph was truly prophetic! It just took 45 years to get the technology into actual cars for retail sale. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:09 am Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
| Thanks to all of you for this information. It really builds my interest in this car, and to know we all have a mutual interest. Also as for front end crash ---- don't think it was mentioned the hood is manufactured so it will fold. I suppose it's on other VW models also. Bob |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:37 am Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
Agree Titan3C...these are intresting infos!
Regarding folding of the hood some folding cuts were introduced in -70 or -71 to the profiles at the underside of the hood in order to make it fold better.
This white car obviously does not have the cuts but if you look at the lower picture you will find them.
Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:10 am Post subject: Re: 411 with automatic side wind control in the early '70s |
|
|
Nice pictures! yes there are a lot of subtle changes and details in these cars if you take the time to look!
The "folds" make sense. I have not had an early enough car to see these differences. Thank you!
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
