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davek181
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2017
Posts: 15
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 Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:50 pm Post subject: 72 411 TDI |
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I have just agreed to purchase a 411 2 door 4 speed with a dropped valve or seat. I intend to try to install an 09 Jetta 2.0 common rail diesel in it (CJAA).
I don't have the car in my possession yet due to deep snow, but I have the transmission mocked up to the engine via a Kennedy adapter. Working out the clutch disk now and starter. It appears the Type 4 mainshaft is all it's own spline size so I may have to have a disk made to fit. I want to use a 228 mm clutch pressure plate from a Vanagon and the original is a 215mm, so I need to find someplace that can put the 411 center in a vanagon disk. I believe the starter will be a 99-04 ALH diesel version mounted via an adapter.
It looks like there should be room enough for the engine though I may have to remove the rear seat shelf, or part of it at least. I may build a box to fill in the are behind the rear seat to hopefully house the radiator and necessary filters and pump for the common rail.
I own an import repair shop and have already gotten a common rail TDI to run standalone and have installed it into a 69 beetle that has been cut into a flatbed. It is in the drive test mode now. It has been rather snowy here so not much driving yet, but it does look very promising. It runs so well that I have been looking for a car to put another into, then this 411 appeared and seemed very appropriate.
I don't know if there is much interest in that sort of project on here. I fear it will be seen as a sacrilege to alter a fairly straight car. It has sat for many years in the weather and will require much TLC to bring back despite the newer engine. I hope to retain near stock appearance and even retain the gas heater with a separate tank to feed it.
Last edited by davek181 on Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: 72 411 TDI |
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| davek181 wrote: |
I have just agreed to purchase a 411 2 door 4 speed with a dropped valve or seat. I intend to try to install an 09 Jetta 2.0 common rail diesel in it (CJAA).
I don't have the car in my possession yet due to deep snow, but I have the transmission mocked up to the engine via a Kennedy adapter. Working out the clutch disk now and starter. It appears the Type 4 mainshaft is all it's own spline size so I may have to have a disk made to fit. I want to use a 228 mm clutch pressure plate from a Vanagon and the original is a 215mm, so I need to find someplace that can put the 411 center in a vanagon disk. I believe the starter will be a 99-04 ALH diesel version mounted via an adapter.
It looks like there should be room enough for the engine though I may have to remove the rear seat shelf, or part of it at least. I may build a box to fill in the are behind the rear seat to hopefully house the radiator and necessary filters and pump for the common rail.
I own an import repair shop and have already gotten a common rail TDI to run standalone and have installed it into a 69 beetle that has been cut into a flatbed. It is in the drive test mode now. It has been rather snowy here so not much driving yet, but it does look very promising. It runs so well that I have been looking for a car to put another into, then this 411 appeared and seemed very appropriate.
I don't know if there is much interest in that sort of project on here. I fear it will be seen as a sacrilege to alter a fairly straight car. It has sat for many years in the weather and will require much TLC to bring back despite the newer engine. I hope to retain near stock appearance and even retain the gas heater with a separate tank to feed it. |
Hello!...sounds like a run project. I would not,do it to such a rare car. A four door or wagon....no problem. The two door four speed models....maybe 2200 shipped all told to the US.
You the type 4 uses a unique spline. It is also rare to see one with a sprung disc. All I have ever seen is a solid disc.
You should be able to pull the center hub from a solid disc and have it rivetted to a 228 disc.
In the long run....there are likely to be issues with the transmission with that much torque from the TDI.
The type 4 four speed was unique to the vehicle.....shares no parts with any other transmission except for a couple of bearings.
While it is a very forward design as compared to all other aircooled vw types .....nothing like the others inside.....and lasts a long time....all of them have several design defects that show with miles. These need to be corrected first just to survive miles and years with a type 4 engine.....all of them are high miles by now.
Take a look at my transmission thread or do a search. I have outlined the deficiencies that need to be corrected. Also.....there are 0 new parts available for these transmissions.
They can probably handle 150hp with no problem.....but at this age these boxes need to be gone through just to make sure they stay running.
Also.....you will find clutch slave cylinders are non existent....but we have a few options. You need to figure out if its early or late pattern.
While I applaud the project.....it would be better suited to a 411 with an automatic.....just to save headaches.
Engine and transmission aside.....you have lots to do on the suspension. Again....few parts available....but we have options for most of that as well. Look forward to seeing how this goes.
Oh....and you cannot go cutting away pieces of the rear chassis without building in a subframe. These are unibody cars.....not pan based cars like other acvw. And....they were crash cell/crumple zone cars front and rear. You can just cut away metal.
Make note of how the rear suspension cross beam is attached. This will tell you a lot. Ray |
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davek181
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2017
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: 72 411 TDI |
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I have some misgivings about ruining a car, so to speak. I have studied it as much as I can without the car here. If it appears too difficult or too much hacking, rest assured I will just fix the original engine.
The transmission worries me. I have studied the subframe design and feel that if needed or desired I can box in the shifter area and adapt a 091 or Vanagon trans with hydraulic clutch. I would like a stronger mount at the front of the trans and that could be done then too. Engine mounts will be Passat diesel, or 300E, they need to be strong also as the engine is 140HP and 250 ft/lb of torque. I intend to use the original crossbeam mounting if I can.
I am certain it will need all the usual stuff done. I will assess the car before leaping into the engine swap. I am sure to peruse these pages for hints as I go along, and ask for help and advice.
I am not sure this is an American import as it is a 72, and a 411. My understanding is that we didn't get the 4 speeders here till 73, and in 412 form. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: 72 411 TDI |
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| davek181 wrote: |
I have some misgivings about ruining a car, so to speak. I have studied it as much as I can without the car here. If it appears too difficult or too much hacking, rest assured I will just fix the original engine.
The transmission worries me. I have studied the subframe design and feel that if needed or desired I can box in the shifter area and adapt a 091 or Vanagon trans with hydraulic clutch. I would like a stronger mount at the front of the trans and that could be done then too. Engine mounts will be Passat diesel, or 300E, they need to be strong also as the engine is 140HP and 250 ft/lb of torque. I intend to use the original crossbeam mounting if I can.
I am certain it will need all the usual stuff done. I will assess the car before leaping into the engine swap. I am sure to peruse these pages for hints as I go along, and ask for help and advice.
I am not sure this is an American import as it is a 72, and a 411. My understanding is that we didn't get the 4 speeders here till 73, and in 412 form. |
NO....the front of the trans MUST have 0 load. This trans is not built like others. The front trans mount is designed as a bump stop to arrest motion.
100% of the weight of the engjne and trans is held at the cross member at the bell houwing to engine joint. The rear hanger bar supporta no weight either.
I have an entire thread dedicated to the geometry of this trans suspension system. If you support the tail.....it WILL destroy the trans.
Th3 main drive shaft from the clutch....is roughly 36" long.....and passes through the entire mainshaft stqck and drives it from the rear mainshaft hub. Making a solid tailcone mount......flexes the case and misaligns the shaft. This is why VW changed from a solid tailcone mount in 1969 to a floating joint.
You really need to take a look at the entire trans design and mouting system to understand it. I will post you a link in the am.
You will not be able to install an 091.....whose gearing sucks anyway for this car. This is not a bus. The four speed has either a 3.91:1 final drive or a 3.73:1 final drive. The issue is the tailcone position. The type four trans.....called a 004......has a low mounted tailcone. The 091 has a high mounted tail cone. You cannot cut the rear crossmember....or drill holes in it.....and alignment of the shuft rod will not work.
Its possible a 901 Porsche can wkrk....but its a bit long.
I will post some links in the next day. I am on the road at a conference. Ray |
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