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Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved )
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Emre
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:17 am    Post subject: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

I purchased my first bug 2 years ago. It was fully restored and good contidion. It is ruby red exterior and beige vinil interior , stock 1200 engine. (NO sunroof or ragtop.) Few months ago I ordered a birth certificate for my car.Today, I just recieved the BC for my 64. I am suprised that it is a type 117 deluxe sedan with sunroof. Color is bahama blue with windsor blue upholstery. Only option is m107 bumper with guards. Production date : 05. sep. 1963 for duesseldorf / germany. Also, It still has the original engine.

I want to ask the guru's here, what's your option about the roof? metal sunroof or ragtop ??

I searched the forum but did not succed to find a real photo with this color ( exterior & interior )combination. Also, this interior trim is very rare I think? No repros? Can you help me please?

Thanks
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:36 am    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

Most used to think the birth certificate was gospel, but recently there have been a few instances to seriously question their validity. Your's appears to be one of the ones to raise some questions. I was always under the impression that VW's model year started in August. So an 8/63 manufactured vehicle would be sold as a 1964 model. So, why is your 64 considered a 64 when a 5/63 manufactured date tells me it a 63 model?

When did VW start production of the steel sunroofs? I have a 6/64 manufactured Beetle, and it has the steel roof. The more intriguing question would be, why doesn't your car have a sunroof? If it did in fact have a sunroof, why was the metal one removed, or worse yet, why was the ragtop removed?

I seem to recall someone posting a pic of the Windsor Blue interior, so I would start searching the gallery with progressively more vague terms, or even start with "blue interior". Westcoast Classic Restorations is considered by most as the highest quality interior reproduction specialists for Aircooled VW's. If anyone could recreate a Windsor Blue interior, it would be them.

In the end, what is your goal with this info? You already have a nice completed car, even though it may have non-original interior/exterior colors. Do you really want to spend another $15k-$25k for the sunroof/interior/exterior to make it match the birth certificate?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:46 am    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

Have you confirmed the body and pan VINs match? Any evidence that the body VIN was removed and replaced? Have you checked some of the hard to access areas for original paint? Inside doors, under seats, up under the dash, inside quarter panels, behind engine sound insulation.... Seems like an awful lot of work to fill in a desireable feature like a sunroof so I would suspect a body swap or similiar.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

A lot can happen in 50+ years, so yeah, a body switch would not be out of the question. I looked at an early 60's Beetle with a 63 pan number, and a 60 body number, and the body number was used for the registration. The person that did the switch had sold it around 2005, but told the current owner the switch was done in the early 70's. Presently you could compair it to clipping a 2005 Civic with a yard clip within a couple of years of the same model.
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Cali_Army_Guy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
I was always under the impression that VW's model year started in August. So an 8/63 manufactured vehicle would be sold as a 1964 model. So, why is your 64 considered a 64 when a 5/63 manufactured date tells me it a 63 model?


Just to clarify his build date is 5 Sept 1963. As in September 5th 1963.
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h~moto
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

Check this chart out https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/paintcodestype1.php
It lists both Ruby Red & Bahama Blue as color options for 1964.
If original, check the wheels to see if they match what is listed in the color chart.
But check for original paint like Sharp64 suggests.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

Cali_Army_Guy wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
I was always under the impression that VW's model year started in August. So an 8/63 manufactured vehicle would be sold as a 1964 model. So, why is your 64 considered a 64 when a 5/63 manufactured date tells me it a 63 model?


Just to clarify his build date is 5 Sept 1963. As in September 5th 1963.


Ahhh....., that makes a little more sense. I hate when dates are listed that way. Sorry to skip over the "sep", and confuse everyone.

That would lean me twords having a metal sunroof. Removing any sunroof is not a bolt on, Sunday afternoon during the football game type of job, but the metal roof would be less work than replacing a ragtop. With the way things were modified on these cars, I could se a previous owner not wanting to deal with the mechanism/leaks, and simply cutting it out.

Here's a post talking about Bahama/Windsor Blue. The cloth multicolor pattern materials will be quite expensive to duplicate.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=171994&highlight=blue+seat
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hitest
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

Wait a sec- when did this thread suddenly determine the BC matches the body of the car here? I haven't seen a single picture of this car.

Please verify that the VIN you supplied VW (on the BC) matches what your pan says. I've either party transpose a number- and it makes a difference.

Verify your body matches your pan- we have not seen that by CONCLUDING that your body was originally mated to that pan. Again, we are on hold until your OG paint is decided.

It is rare as HELL for someone to fill in a sunroof during a restoration. Notice I didn't say just an exterior scuff and shoot.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

hitest wrote:
Wait a sec- when did this thread suddenly determine the BC matches the body of the car here? I haven't seen a single picture of this car.

Please verify that the VIN you supplied VW (on the BC) matches what your pan says. I've either party transpose a number- and it makes a difference.

Verify your body matches your pan- we have not seen that by CONCLUDING that your body was originally mated to that pan. Again, we are on hold until your OG paint is decided.

It is rare as HELL for someone to fill in a sunroof during a restoration. Notice I didn't say just an exterior scuff and shoot.


I am ASSUMING all numbers, body/chassis/certificate, all match, and are correct. I would have hoped the OP would have included if something didn't match with the opening post. The roof may not have been omitted in the restoration, but possibly decades before. The shop I'm at now did a restoration on a fairly valuable Mercedes Benz. The car was from the 50's, and was backed into a hay bail row at 100+ while sportsman road racing as a 7-8 year old "sports car" in the early 60's. It wasn't taken to a body shop to be repaired, it was beat out with a sledge, and pulled on an infield tree in the pits to get ready for next weekends event. Running Beetles could be had for $100 in the 70's. Swapping body parts, and even cutting out sunroofs cost next to nothing 30 years ago. If the paint wasn't stripped, and someone went overboard on gluing the felt sound deadner on the underside of the roof, someone doing a restoration may not even know if a sunroof was ever there.

With most new users getting impatient when they don't receive a reply within the hour, I'm not sure why the OP hasn't come back in the last 24 hours?
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Emre
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

Sorry for being late, I was very busy at work and forgot to check this thread. Thanks for the replies. Sadly, the body tag of my car is missing. The previous owner told me he will find it out and ship it to me, but he never did. So I really don't know if the body is original and matchs the pan.

I also send an email to vw museum and ask them about my sunroof, the lady told me that the production of ragtop's ended on 5th of august 1963. She said all beetles (with sunroof) after produced that date was equiped with metal sliding sunroof. I think she regards to the deluxe versions.

The body number is not written on th BC. I don't know if they keep the records of that in the museum?

I think I have to find out if the body of my car matchs the vin or not?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

The answer is usually the simplest. From the factory, they body and pan would have had the same VIN numbers. Since the body tag is gone and the VIN on the pan says it should be a sunroof car, it's most likely that the body on yours has been swapped. Post up some clear pictures of various areas so we people can see what you have and again go looking in hard to find areas for any blue paint. If all you find is red or some other color it will add credence that there was a body swap. Also, there are some things like aprons, hoods, and other parts that were switched over the years and not easily identified. No tellong what else was changed. Further, why would the PO remove the body tag? Makes zero sense unless they are hiding something.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Most used to think the birth certificate was gospel, but recently there have been a few instances to seriously question their validity. Your's appears to be one of the ones to raise some questions.


True^^
The BC on my 59 Beetle states under "M 350 US-equipment" that it came out with "dual-circuit brake system", "reversing light" and "hazard warning system". REALLY?? in 59??

It really seams in your case, that the body got swapped.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

Emre wrote:
Sorry for being late, I was very busy at work and forgot to check this thread. Thanks for the replies. Sadly, the body tag of my car is missing. The previous owner told me he will find it out and ship it to me, but he never did. So I really don't know if the body is original and matchs the pan.

I also send an email to vw museum and ask them about my sunroof, the lady told me that the production of ragtop's ended on 5th of august 1963. She said all beetles (with sunroof) after produced that date was equiped with metal sliding sunroof. I think she regards to the deluxe versions.

The body number is not written on th BC. I don't know if they keep the records of that in the museum?

I think I have to find out if the body of my car matchs the vin or not?


Offer to grease the wheels a little to the previous owner, and tell them you'll give them $100 if they actually send the body tag they promised you. If you still get the run around, you will have your answer. If not, you may end up getting the proper tag for $100. Technically a VIN tag should never be removed, but many do it when performing a full restoration.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

maybe when it was being restored someone didn't want to deal with fixing a sunroof or didn't want a sunroof and welded a regular roof clip on. they could have done a very good job and it would be hard to tell. possibly also a body swap. try to match up all the numbers body/chassis/engine. 1964 was the first model year with metal sunroof instead of a ragtop.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Please help me to decode my 64. ( Birth certificate recieved ) Reply with quote

And with that entry this thread has run full circle- and is now even less helpful.

Until we have pics of the car- we're done here.
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I wonder what the nut looks like.



'62 L390 151, '62 L469 117, '63 L380 113, '65 L512 265, '65 L31 SO-42, '66 L360 251, '71 L12 113, '74 L65K Love Bug SE, '74 ORG 181

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