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c21darrel
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
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Bloku
Expert Noob
Joined: April 09, 2013
Posts: 559
Location: Tulsa/Jenks Oklahoma
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 Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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Wow! Same EXACT thing keeps happening to me with my 71 ghia. I have the the MS crack a leak at the same place 2 times so far. I have also had my pedal travel, gap, and alignment checked multiple times. At this point, I think it is just whoever is making these replacement MS's are going cheap on the front main seal.
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1971 Karmann Ghia
1975 Porsche 914
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1975 BMW 2002
1976 BMW 2002 (Bored and Stroked w/ 5-Speed)
1981 BMW E21
1986 Toyota 4Runner (Dead engine and trans)
1989 Toyota 4x4 PU
1994 BMW E36 (Daily) |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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Bloku, so that begs the question... which MC did you buy? And any wisdom about cleaning up the mess?
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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Bloku
Expert Noob
Joined: April 09, 2013
Posts: 559
Location: Tulsa/Jenks Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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The MC i got was TRW brand, but I am not sure about the brands of the previous ones... Though a year had passed, the box looked the same as the ones that failed. I would get another brand, but I got this one from a friend.
To clean up the mess I dumped water into the the tunnel with the front end jacked up to let it all drain out of the rear tunnel hole. I only recently did this so I have yet to do anything else. I am thinking a gastank sealant or something of the sort mixed with some water. Even if you do nothing, I think the metal is strong enough go take some brake fluid!
_________________
1971 Karmann Ghia
1975 Porsche 914
-----
1975 BMW 2002
1976 BMW 2002 (Bored and Stroked w/ 5-Speed)
1981 BMW E21
1986 Toyota 4Runner (Dead engine and trans)
1989 Toyota 4x4 PU
1994 BMW E36 (Daily) |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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On my '74 bug daily driver I initially bought the Varga m/c and within a few years began to notice the inlet seal beginning to leak. I let it go this way for maybe a year and replaced it with a german ATE m/c. When I had everything apart I looked at the metal tubes from the reservoir to the m/c and saw some rust inside. A weapons bore brush cleaned the tubes up nicely and have had the ATE m/c for a few years also.
FTE is also a german brake supplier but not known if the standard type 1 m/c is avail from them, though I've used the FTE on super beetles.
Working at various shops I would take the finished car out back to the wash station and run water through the tunnel to clean up the residue.
Hope this helps, Bill. |
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Evil_Fiz
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011
Posts: 1045
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| rockerarm wrote: |
| bhartwell59 wrote: |
| Personally, I rather have my brake res in the front trunk |
Me also. I'd rather not complicate basic inspections/maintenance procedures.
I suppose if that part had a float bobber like many new cars have that would light up a simple warning lamp, it might be more accepted. |
Check out episode 15 of "Project Binky" at the 00:29:13 mark. They build their own MC reservoir using an OE float equipped lid. I am considering attempting something similar once my skills approach at least 10% of what these guys are capable of 
Link
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It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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79SuperVert
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9758
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| rockerarm wrote: |
FTE is also a german brake supplier but not known if the standard type 1 m/c is avail from them, though I've used the FTE on super beetles |
I just bought a "german" MC for my 62 Beetle from Wolfsburg West and it was FTE. It looks identical to one I bought from them 12 years ago. I use the quote marks because both boxes had the "Made In..." piece of the carton cut out with a razor. I don't know why Wolfsburg West does this. I would have assumed that leaving the "Made In Germany" label on the box would have been a selling point...unless it doesn't say "Germany". I hope "german" doesn't mean a German company but not made in Germany. In which case Wolfsburg West has some 'splainin' to do.
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Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| 79SuperVert wrote: |
| rockerarm wrote: |
FTE is also a german brake supplier but not known if the standard type 1 m/c is avail from them, though I've used the FTE on super beetles |
I just bought a "german" MC for my 62 Beetle from Wolfsburg West and it was FTE. It looks identical to one I bought from them 12 years ago. I use the quote marks because both boxes had the "Made In..." piece of the carton cut out with a razor. I don't know why Wolfsburg West does this. I would have assumed that leaving the "Made In Germany" label on the box would have been a selling point...unless it doesn't say "Germany". I hope "german" doesn't mean a German company but not made in Germany. In which case Wolfsburg West has some 'splainin' to do. |
WOW, thanks for sharing that. I'm surprised WW would do this. This is comparable to the Euro-Max Brake switches I bought with confidence from my friends shop. Soon after a 100% failure rate on them I was able to peel back the importers label and see the made in china print on the box. Being the azzhole I am I contacted the distributor and inquired about this. There reply was the markup was so good the shops didn't concern themselves with the failure rate.
Bill. |
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79SuperVert
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9758
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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I've sent Wolfsburg West an email asking to explain why those labels are cut out, and where my FTE master cylinders were made. I'll post their response here.
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Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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bobnorman
Samba Newfoundlander
Joined: August 09, 2010
Posts: 1389
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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Anytime I see "Euro" anything in a brand name I just assume it's made in China. I've had a Euromax ball joint fold up like a cheese slice while trying to install it. You guessed it- made in China.
As for cleaning out the leak, I wouldn't tilt the chassis or anything like that. If anything, I would drill a small drain hole at the lowest point of the underside of the Napoleon hat area and rinse with a hose, maybe spray a can of brake clean in there first through the chassis bolt holes and the MC hole.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=289807 |
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79SuperVert
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9758
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| 79SuperVert wrote: |
| I've sent Wolfsburg West an email asking to explain why those labels are cut out, and where my FTE master cylinders were made. I'll post their response here. |
Their response:
Hello Joseph.
Thank you for the email.
The German master cylinders that we offer are made in Germany.
What we are removing form the box is the label of the company that we purchase the master cylinder from.
Feel free to email with any further questions.
Thank you.
Sean
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Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| bobnorman wrote: |
| As for cleaning out the leak, I wouldn't tilt the chassis or anything like that. |
Too late. I took the others advice and flushed with water. Actually soapy water. Jacked up the front, poured water through the MC hole and it all drained through the tunnel drain hole. Then jacked up the right rear, poured more water through the MC hole which drained through the left side framehead bolt holes. Repeat on other side. Still had to stuff a bunch of paper towels in there to soak up the standing water. But overall worked pretty well with little mess.
After the car dries in the sun, I plan to spray the Eastwood internal frame coating in the tunnel and frame head, as well as Masterseries around the MC location .
| bobnorman wrote: |
| I would drill a small drain hole at the lowest point of the underside of the Napoleon hat area |
That idea came to me too last night, to avoid messes like this in the future . I think a 5 mm hole might do the trick just to give me more advanced warning as well as allow leaks to drain before making its way to other parts of the car. I think that would be a design improvement!
| 79SuperVert wrote: |
| I just bought a "german" MC for my 62 Beetle from Wolfsburg West and it was FTE. |
Interestingly the MC that leaked on me is FTE. Maybe it's old or maybe leaks are inevitable regardless of brand? Well my new MC came in and it is made in China. "OE Brand" by FPD (Foreign Parts Distributors)...
but here's what CIP1 says online and I'm going with it...
We have tested many different cylinders with varying results and consider these 2 versions the best for value and quality. We do NOT offer the cheapest cylinders available because, we are talking about your braking system after all.
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| Never heard of that brand. Good luck. |
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79SuperVert
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9758
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| J1 wrote: |
| Interestingly the MC that leaked on me is FTE. Maybe it's old or maybe leaks are inevitable regardless of brand? |
I'm not an expert but I think it's reasonable to expect a master cylinder to fail eventually. Maybe not in a year or five, but after ten years, I'd say it becomes more likely with each passing year, depending on how much the car is used. Do you know how old yours was?
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Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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sirzo
Samba Member
Joined: December 12, 2007
Posts: 170
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| 79SuperVert wrote: |
| rockerarm wrote: |
FTE is also a german brake supplier but not known if the standard type 1 m/c is avail from them, though I've used the FTE on super beetles |
I just bought a "german" MC for my 62 Beetle from Wolfsburg West and it was FTE. It looks identical to one I bought from them 12 years ago. I use the quote marks because both boxes had the "Made In..." piece of the carton cut out with a razor. I don't know why Wolfsburg West does this. I would have assumed that leaving the "Made In Germany" label on the box would have been a selling point...unless it doesn't say "Germany". I hope "german" doesn't mean a German company but not made in Germany. In which case Wolfsburg West has some 'splainin' to do. |
Sometimes the packaging might say Packed in Germany. I had an Australian VW shop try to sell me "genuine German" made brakes over the phone. But when I turned up to pick them up they were "packed in Germany". He tried to tell me it was the same thing! Shonky salesmanship. |
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kingkarmann
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2003
Posts: 4111
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| J1 wrote: |
but here's what CIP1 says online and I'm going with it...
We have tested many different cylinders with varying results and consider these 2 versions the best for value and quality. We do NOT offer the cheapest cylinders available because, we are talking about your braking system after all. |
I'll chime in too as a replacement MC is on the to do list.
My old Chinese one is 10years old and has always leaked a small amount and now needs attention
Just like J1 I ordered a MC from CIP1. I went with the Dansk or Brax branded master. I think it's made in Denmark. Described as good European quality. We shall see....
The box is tagged "Classic Line".
Here's what I received;
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79SuperVert
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9758
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| kingkarmann wrote: |
| My old Chinese one is 10years old and has always leaked a small amount and now needs attention |
Forgive me for posting the "bleedin'" obvious, but if the MC leaked from the time it was new then it was defective, and as much trouble as it is to put these in, I would have taken it out immediately and sent it back for a refund. Ten years of a brake fluid leak would be quite a mess.
BTW, you have a beautiful Ghia. 
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Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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kingkarmann
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2003
Posts: 4111
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| 79SuperVert wrote: |
| kingkarmann wrote: |
| My old Chinese one is 10years old and has always leaked a small amount and now needs attention |
Forgive me for posting the "bleedin'" obvious, but if the MC leaked from the time it was new then it was defective, and as much trouble as it is to put these in, I would have taken it out immediately and sent it back for a refund. Ten years of a brake fluid leak would be quite a mess.
BTW, you have a beautiful Ghia. |
Very punny 
It's leaking perhaps an ounce a season. For exactly the reason you mentioned mentioned "trouble". It wasn't enough to motivate me. After a list of minor maintenance issues cropped up I decides it was time. Now that its in the air........ 
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"Depression is a malfunction of the instrument we use to determine reality.
Mike Gerson
What is your "Bespoke Reality"? |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:03 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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Source of the current issue is a leaky MC but there is of course a bunch of pre work before I even get to the MC.
My front hood area has been a mess, caked in years of grime, plus rust under the reservoir and lines, and now brake fluid saturating the pan section...
So I did a whole lotta cleaning including the framehead, sanding out the rust, then laid down my workhorse Masterseries...
I finally got to try out the Tower Paints rattle can sitting in my garage for a couple years. Adriatic blue color match is not quite there (assuming my PO's respray was accurate to the original) but it'll suffice for now...
I need to focus on getting the brakes working but Ive already been distracted by cleaning up my rusty fuel tank so I may try to put in a new fuel line while I'm at it. I'm thinking of the easier method of running the fuel line inside the cabin along the tunnel.
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:15 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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After flushing out the leaked brake fluid from the gap in the framehead and the tunnel, I slapped on some Eastwood interior frame coating. Stuck the 2' tube through the pan bolt holes at the framehead. Nice in concept but a little tricky. At least somewhere it's better than before!
Tunnel was more straightforward going through the drain hole and from the front. Don't think it quite reaches throughout but it's better than before:
Anyway I'm now ready to put in the new MC. First of all, the old one. Note all the leaked fluid:
And the new MC along with a new reservoir and new rubber hoses. The metal hoses seemed fine so I just cleaned the inside thoroughly. I also covered the MC with Masterseries since they apparently attract rust like moth to light. I know, very silvery in this area:
The one boo boo I may have made is over tightening the brake light switches (didn't know they were tapered and required only 14 ft lbs). So I pulled back out and put on some blue thread locker to help seal a bit better. I'll be looking closely for leaks.
Question: I was barely able to loosen all the brass nuts on the metal lines (with a flair wrench) but could I use anti seize on the threads so I don't risk stripping the brass nuts next time?
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